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Notepad++ leaves SourceForge

notepad-plus-plus.org

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Re: Notepad++ leaves SourceForge

#51

Post by jmillikin »

DLWormwood wrote: post #45
jmillikin wrote: post #19

SourceForge doesn't have much choice in this, unless they're willing to violate US law. For what it's worth, SourceForge allows projects to determine whether their downloads are subject to export laws, and to disable the blocks[1]. Support for this was added in early February, several months before the notepad-plus-plus.org domain was registered. There's no technical or legal reason why N++ had to move off SourceForg…

> There's no technical or legal reason why N++ had to move off SourceForge; they're simply throwing a hissy fit. What's wrong with moving off the server out of principle? While I'm American, I can't fault these guys if they suddenly felt less secure about the hosting of their work by a US company, especially if it's due to political reasons they'd have no recourse over if at some future point they risk being targeted…

"What's wrong with moving off the server out of principle?"

Nothing, but if that were the case, why move to France? It would be more appropriate to chose a country less infamous for internet censorship, such as Sweden, Norway, or the Czech Republic.

Re: Notepad++ leaves SourceForge

#52

Post by jrockway »

petercooper wrote: post #17
jrockway wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has killed far more than 41 people with lethal injections alone. But that is irrelevant. Why shouldn't North Korea's residents be allowed to work on Free Software?

Open source developers working at the one, heavily monitored, most likely site-restricted cybercafé in Pyongyang? Syria, Iran and Cuba are different matters entirely, but people in North Korea are limited by having no Internet connectivity in the first place, than by being blocked by sites in the US. You may as well ask why the civilizations of Andromeda are stopping us from selling our wares there.

So if they're already blocked off, why is it a legal requirement for US companies to block them?

Re: Notepad++ leaves SourceForge

#53

Post by jemfinch »

akeefer wrote: post #5
pistoriusp wrote: post #2

Cuba? I'm not a North American, but isn't all the trouble with Cuba over now? I recall a few months back that Nelson Mandela was on the terrorist watch list in the USA - And as such he wouldn't / couldn't enter the country. Perhaps this is one of those "laws" that was forgotten?

Unfortunately there's a large, politically-influential group of Cuban exiles in Florida. In pretty much every recent presidential election cycle, Florida has been a crucial swing state that could go to either side, so neither party has wanted to upset that group by normalizing relations with Cuba. From a political standpoint there's a lot to lose and nothing to gain from it, unfortunately.

Why would Cuban exiles want to embargo their former home?

Re: Notepad++ leaves SourceForge

#54

Post by petercooper »

jrockway wrote: post #52
petercooper wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source developers working at the one, heavily monitored, most likely site-restricted cybercafé in Pyongyang? Syria, Iran and Cuba are different matters entirely, but people in North Korea are limited by having no Internet connectivity in the first place, than by being blocked by sites in the US. You may as well ask why the civilizations of Andromeda are stopping us from selling our wares there.

So if they're already blocked off, why is it a legal requirement for US companies to block them?

I can't speak as to the policies of the US government, but aren't blocks like these related to the more typical physical sanctions of delivering products to a country? With the Internet, you can just VPN around these blocks anyway, so anyone in NK who wanted to access this stuff and had a connection could do so.

That said, since the only people in North Korea who are likely to access the Internet are the people in charge (who we "don't like"), it doesn't seem unreasonable to block their access to software they might use even if it's easy to circumvent anyway.

Re: Notepad++ leaves SourceForge

#55

Post by inerte »

jmillikin wrote: post #51
DLWormwood wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no technical or legal reason why N++ had to move off SourceForge; they're simply throwing a hissy fit. What's wrong with moving off the server out of principle? While I'm American, I can't fault these guys if they suddenly felt less secure about the hosting of their work by a US company, especially if it's due to political reasons they'd have no recourse over if at some future point they risk being targeted…

" What's wrong with moving off the server out of principle? " Nothing, but if that were the case, why move to France? It would be more appropriate to chose a country less infamous for internet censorship, such as Sweden, Norway, or the Czech Republic.

More appropriate for those who know what is the best option in terms of information share freedom. Maybe notepad++ does not know these countries are the best choices, currently, to host what they want.

Regardless, it does not look they went to the best possible option, but instead they went for something that is at least better than their current options. French hosting, in their terms, is better than Sourceforge. It's a step into something direction...

This direction is what is really important. If, they ever become aware of France limitations (and it would be easy to make them aware) they can improve their offerings.

Re: Notepad++ leaves SourceForge

#56

Post by akeefer »

jemfinch wrote: post #53
akeefer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately there's a large, politically-influential group of Cuban exiles in Florida. In pretty much every recent presidential election cycle, Florida has been a crucial swing state that could go to either side, so neither party has wanted to upset that group by normalizing relations with Cuba. From a political standpoint there's a lot to lose and nothing to gain from it, unfortunately.

Why would Cuban exiles want to embargo their former home?

My understanding is that many of them fled following the Cuban Revolution and subsequent nationalization of property; the ones who were in Cuba at the time are likely either very old or dead by now, but presumably their descendants still harbor resentment over it. From the associated Wikipedia article:

"Cuba began expropriating land and private property under the auspices of the Agrarian Reform law of May 1959. Cuban lawyer Mario Lazo writes that farms of any size could be and were seized by the government. Land, businesses, and companies owned by upper and middle class Cubans were also nationalized, including the plantations owned by Fidel Castro's family. By the end of 1960, the revolutionary government had nationalized more than 25 billion dollars worth of private property owned by Cubans."

The angry Cuban ex-patriots are generally from that middle or upper class that had their property nationalized.

Re: Notepad++ leaves SourceForge

#57

Post by melling »

mquander wrote: post #35
melling wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) No I can't. Can you prove the opposite? No. Pointless argument. Yes! So why even make it? Can you find North Korea on this map? http://paradoxoff.com/north-korea-night-map.html I bet there aren't too many hackers staying up until dawn hacking on Notepad++. Why does a country with no electricity want to be on this list? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_wea... People in power, or anyone else…

The reason I made point 1 is because our default decision should always err on the side of freedom. Why would you bother restricting anything unless you can identify some benefit to restricting it? It's more work, and maximizing freedom often results in positive results when the freedom turns out to be useful in a way you didn't expect. For all I know, not a single man in North Korea knows what the hell Notepad++ is.…

After reading through the other posts, I don't think Notepad++ was ever restricted by export controls. Sourceforge initially didn't allow them to specify that the software was not restricted by law so they restricted everyone.

So, other than software that contains encryption, what software is restricted?

Re: Notepad++ leaves SourceForge

#58

Post by melvin »

smackfu wrote: post #32
melvin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, Notepad++ has never been the most professional project out there. It's decent, though I tend to think people who are obsessed with it need to back away from Windows for a second and try Kate. So, I think this might illustrate that high on their features list should be 'English Spellcheck'.

Ha. Try a professional project named "Kate".

I don't understand, do you mean there's something wrong with the name 'Kate' (KDE Advanced text Editor), that the appearance and conduct Kate developers are not professional, or that there is something unprofessional about the program?

Re: Notepad++ leaves SourceForge

#59

Post by melvin »

tzs wrote: post #22
melvin wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, it's a law and they're following it. Sourceforge and Google are not responsible for that. As far as North Korea, um... so, when the US kills 25 Afghans at a wedding ("oops! my video-game like predator drone readout made it look like they were definitely terrorists") what does that mean? I guess France should stop exporting Notepad++ to the US. Correct? No, the issue is whether 'exporting' a text editor to N.…

"No, the issue is whether 'exporting' a text editor to N. Korea would REALLY make any difference. Perhaps the clueless, bribed, caviar-stuffed and prostitute-sucked morons in Congress think so, but most of them can hardly even send an email." Think about this for a few milliseconds before ranting. How would you write a law that blocked the bad "exports" while allowing the good "exports" through? It's much less work t…

It's impossible to block open source software exports. Anyone in the entire world can download anything from anywhere; an attempt to block by country reflects a lack of understanding of how the internet works.

Blocking export of closed source/commercial software is more realistic, but still, the targets can always pirate or obtain what they want through a third party.

Re: Notepad++ leaves SourceForge

#60

Post by DrSprout »

koeselitz wrote: post #29

Aside from everything else, I like the new site design. I hate to say it, but the old one on SourceForge was sort of hideous. And it was kind of sad, because I really love this project - it's vibrant, and it's creating some really great things in Notepad++. I recommend Notepad++ to people constantly , but every time I'd find myself having to say "now when you go to this site... just ignore how ugly and confusing it i…

Sourceforge itself is kind of an eyesore for all the projects hosted there, regardless of the design of their primary website.
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