H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms • Hacker News Board

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#441

Post by ikeyany » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 11:01 PM UTC

an_cap wrote: post #268

ikeyany wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously asking why it's ethical to encourage American companies to hire Americans?

Yes. And I am looking for an answer that couldn't then be used to argue that it's also ethical to encourage White companies to hire Whites. And I'm not even asking that you don't "encourage" American companies to hire Americans. I'm simply asking that you don't ban (or make it extremely difficult) American companies who do want to hire non-Americans from doing so.

Creating a business in America and therefore being a part of the American economy means prioritizing America in your business interests. If you are against that (e.g. willing to undercut American wages by hiring cheaper foreigners), then you should be penalized.

If businesses were free to reap America's rewards without contributing to America's "costs", then America's economy would (continue to) crumble as businesses (continue to) exploit that loophole.

Think of it as a "If you want to use America's resources to thrive, then you should contribute to America's economy" tax.

God is watching--do you honestly see why that policy exists? Or can you still not fathom why the policy is a good idea? Your "white" counterexample is non-nonsensical, primarily because of the Equal Protection clause of the constitution--it has always been illegal/unethical to make a racial distinction...surely this is something you've known since high school gov.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#442

Post by flukus » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 12:29 AM UTC

ouesp wrote: post #375

flukus wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you also thought about why Indian American kids win spelling bee's Because their parents and education system still focus on rote learning, we moved on from that waste of time decades ago.

Asians are good at Math than Americans. Is that rote learning too ? > we moved on from that waste of time decades ago. No wonder Asians are taking over.

You'll have to be more specific. Quite a lot of what schools consider math is rote learning, from time tables in early years to forumalas in later ones.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#443

Post by prirun » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 1:14 AM UTC

rajathagasthya wrote: post #141

clairity wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This hurts the people brought in (they are stuck in bad jobs with bad pay and no way out)." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i agree with everything you said except for this part. many of the indian workers are still better off economically than they might otherwise be, even if they are not as well off as their american counterparts. in any case, we should let every person seeking higher education in the US work indefinitely in this…

> in any case, we should let every person seeking higher education in the US work indefinitely in this country This is the discussion that's always missing whenever H1B is discussed anywhere. It always gets hijacked by Indian IT companies abusing the system. Does the administration have a plan on how to deal with students who get their degrees from US universities, who also seek H1Bs to work? If they don't make this…

I believe US students would benefit, because I think state-sponsored universities are preferring foreign students over in-state students because foreign students pay more tuition than in-state students.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#444

Post by FooBarJmp » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 2:00 AM UTC

wsxcde wrote: post #400

FooBarJmp wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's examine your math. So this year there were 86,000 visas for 2017 that last for 3 years. So that means by 2020, if the visa limit stays at 86,000, there will be 258,000 H1Bs, of course this assumes that H1Bs were created in 2017, we are ignoring all those that came before. Let's NOT ignore those and look at the below link - http://insights.dice.com/2013/05/14/how-nearly-800000-h-1b-w... Yes, in 2013, it was 775,…

You can't stay for more than 6 years on an H1B unless your employer files a PERM application, has that approved, and then you/your employer files an I-140, and that is also approved. In other words, if your employer never filed a PERM, or never had one approved, you have to leave after a maximum of 6 years. Green card applications for Indians (and to a lesser extent Chinese and Mexicans) are backed up for decades. So…

You should really look at TCS/WIPRO/InfoSys employees, or talk to them, it would really enlighten you.

240,000 is way more than your initial 40,000, yet you still say it's a small fraction.

So many articles say differently. I guess they could be all wrong. https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/04/14/how-the-salari...

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#445

Post by an_cap » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 4:23 AM UTC

ikeyany wrote: post #441

an_cap wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And I am looking for an answer that couldn't then be used to argue that it's also ethical to encourage White companies to hire Whites. And I'm not even asking that you don't "encourage" American companies to hire Americans. I'm simply asking that you don't ban (or make it extremely difficult) American companies who do want to hire non-Americans from doing so.

Creating a business in America and therefore being a part of the American economy means prioritizing America in your business interests. If you are against that (e.g. willing to undercut American wages by hiring cheaper foreigners), then you should be penalized. If businesses were free to reap America's rewards without contributing to America's "costs", then America's economy would (continue to) crumble as businesses…

You're completely ignoring the substance of my question. Of course I understand that the US constitution doesn't allow racial discrimination. Surely its the case that racial discrimination is inherently bad and THEREFORE the US constitution prohibits it. Do you really want to hold the position that racial discrimination is bad BECAUSE the US constitution prohibits it?

You seem to ascribe very special moral rights to this particular association of people that we call democratic states. Why is the USG allowed to ban foreigners from coming to the US if they undercut American wages? Is New York State allowed to ban people from NJ from working in NYC by a majority vote (or a super-majority vote)? Again, I'm not asking whether the US constitution allows this - I know that it doesn't. The question is regarding ethics not law.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#446

Post by gragas » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 5:05 AM UTC

shripadk wrote: post #434

gragas wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem really is that you are comparing a geographic (Indian) to followers of a religion (Jews). Wrong. Keep telling yourself what you want to hear. I'm talking about Jewish ancestry (i.e., genetics), not Jewish faith. Essentially all of the genius Ashkenazi Jews were non-practicing: - John Von Neumann - Albert Einstein - Bobby Fischer - Richard Feynman - Sigmund Freud - Hans Bethe - Eugene Wigner - Milton Frie…

> I'm talking about Jewish ancestry (i.e., genetics), not Jewish faith This has nothing to do with genetics. If genetics was at play, you would have had Jews inventing and discovering prior to 20th century too. That is not the case (at least not comparable to amount of discoveries/inventions that happened in the 20th/21st century). This was because the Jews had a level playing field. The section of Wikipedia you quot…

>I'm sure our future generations (2-3 centuries from now) would be studying about Indians in the same way as we are studying about Ashkenazi Jews today.

That is truly repulsive, man. I'm not sure why you have such a wet dream about being the smartest and most successful race/ethnicity/whatever, but I want nothing to do with it. It's honestly really off-putting.

Also, you're COMPLETELY wrong about Jews having a level playing field prior to the 17th century. Jews were prohibited from nearly every trade in the middle ages.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#447

Post by ikeyany » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 5:18 AM UTC

an_cap wrote: post #445

ikeyany wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating a business in America and therefore being a part of the American economy means prioritizing America in your business interests. If you are against that (e.g. willing to undercut American wages by hiring cheaper foreigners), then you should be penalized. If businesses were free to reap America's rewards without contributing to America's "costs", then America's economy would (continue to) crumble as businesses…

You're completely ignoring the substance of my question. Of course I understand that the US constitution doesn't allow racial discrimination. Surely its the case that racial discrimination is inherently bad and THEREFORE the US constitution prohibits it. Do you really want to hold the position that racial discrimination is bad BECAUSE the US constitution prohibits it? You seem to ascribe very special moral rights to…

> Why is the USG allowed to ban foreigners from coming to the US if they undercut American wages?

It's in the interest of a nation to implement rules that boost its economy. Wanting foreigners to prosper over your own countrymen is akin to betraying your country. How is this ethical point even a question?

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#448

Post by ikeyany » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 5:19 AM UTC

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #265

ikeyany wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously asking why it's ethical to encourage American companies to hire Americans?

Do American companies sell only in America? India had a "Be Indian Buy Indian" policy for decades. Look how it turned out.

Within reasonable limits. Being pro American doesn't mean being anti everyone else.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#449

Post by shripadk » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 5:28 AM UTC

gragas wrote: post #446

shripadk wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm talking about Jewish ancestry (i.e., genetics), not Jewish faith This has nothing to do with genetics. If genetics was at play, you would have had Jews inventing and discovering prior to 20th century too. That is not the case (at least not comparable to amount of discoveries/inventions that happened in the 20th/21st century). This was because the Jews had a level playing field. The section of Wikipedia you quot…

>I'm sure our future generations (2-3 centuries from now) would be studying about Indians in the same way as we are studying about Ashkenazi Jews today. That is truly repulsive, man. I'm not sure why you have such a wet dream about being the smartest and most successful race/ethnicity/whatever, but I want nothing to do with it. It's honestly really off-putting. Also, you're COMPLETELY wrong about Jews having a level…

> Also, you're COMPLETELY wrong about Jews having a level playing field prior to the 17th century. Jews were prohibited from nearly every trade in the middle ages.

I said in the 19th-20th century. You have trouble reading my answers because you have a prejudiced mind. I never said prior to 17th century. So do not twist my answers to your liking (First you changed from "Jews" to "Jewish ancestry" after calling you out on your ridiculous comparison between Indians and Jews and now this). Jews had 3 centuries (starting from 17th century) to adapt and learn all the best things in various fields. Be it science, arts, philosophy etc. Indians have had only 70 years. This is a hard fact and no one can deny this.

> That is truly repulsive, man. I'm not sure why you have such a wet dream about being the smartest and most successful race/ethnicity/whatever, but I want nothing to do with it. It's honestly really off-putting.

We aren't. I'm clearly telling you that we had only 70 years to get to where we are today and we'll need 2-3 centuries more to make it (which is clearly why I said future generations 2-3 centuries from now). And I'm proud of it. It's repulsive to your prejudiced mind that's not my problem. I'm glad that my comments are off-putting to bigots.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#450

Post by wsxcde » Thu, Apr 20, 2017, 5:36 AM UTC

FooBarJmp wrote: post #444

wsxcde wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't stay for more than 6 years on an H1B unless your employer files a PERM application, has that approved, and then you/your employer files an I-140, and that is also approved. In other words, if your employer never filed a PERM, or never had one approved, you have to leave after a maximum of 6 years. Green card applications for Indians (and to a lesser extent Chinese and Mexicans) are backed up for decades. So…

You should really look at TCS/WIPRO/InfoSys employees, or talk to them, it would really enlighten you. 240,000 is way more than your initial 40,000, yet you still say it's a small fraction. So many articles say differently. I guess they could be all wrong. https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/04/14/how-the-salari...

Yes, it is 6.67%. That is literally the definition of a small fraction. And that is assuming a gross overestimate of 240k employees for Indian consulting firms in the US. Exact numbers are hard to get but here are some more facts: Infosys had a total of 23,594 employees in the US for 2016. TCS in 2012-13 had a total of only 21,830 employees outside India. With the two biggest H1B employers out of the way, I don't see how you're going to support your claim that there are 700k employees of Indian consulting firms on H1Bs in the US. It is simply not possible.

I have plenty of friends who work for Infosys and TCS. None of my friends even applied for a green card and they all went back to India after a couple of years here at the most. Many postings in the US at these companies last only 9-12 months. And neither TCS nor Infosys have any interest whatsoever in helping people immigrate to the US. (You need an employer to file a PERM application if you want a green card. A green card is required if you want to stay here more than 6 years.) That is the exact opposite of what they want to do.

The article you've mentioned says nothing about H1Bs. Outsourcing is not going to go away even if you eliminate H1Bs. And yes, all these articles making noise about this epidemic of H1Bs are in fact wrong. They're written by a bunch of poorly-informed Americans who wouldn't know the difference between an I-140 and an I-20. And their goal is to just generate clickbait to cater to nativist sentiment in the US. There's a lot of conservatives who emphatically don't want more Indians in this country. But they know they'll never win if they argue that they don't want Google and Microsoft employees here. So instead they've come up with this nonsense about Infosys and TCS stealing American jobs.