Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair • Hacker News Board

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#301

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 9:37 PM UTC

magic_beans wrote: post #142

ModernMech wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless you happened to major in the few areas of study where gainful employment is possible. Crushing student debt, high cost of living cities, an unreachably inflated housing market, low (but non-zero for now) job prospects Very much this. I came out of a good school with only $30k in debt and a degree in a tech field. My wife came out of an okay state school with $60k in debt (much of that private loans with high…

Many of my friends from high school went on to do undergrad, and then master's degrees in Art History. One of them is working as an intern at the Met now. The other three are living on their trust funds. I don't understand why any sensible person would get an MA in the humanities. It's all well and good if you are doing for your own intellectual curiosity, but it's not so great if you expect a living wage on that deg…

In Greek and Roman days, the "liberal arts" are, historically, the arts that are appropriate for free people, as opposed to the trades, which were for slaves. That is, the liberal arts were for people who didn't have to work, or to earn a living from what they learned.

Fast forward to today. The liberal arts (humanities) are fine if you have a trust fund. If you're going to have to work for your living? Not so much.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#302

Post by ChrisLTD » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 9:41 PM UTC

jnicholasp wrote: post #289

ChrisLTD wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting point, but it leads me to a different conclusion. Given the higher numbers of people employed in retail, shouldn't we focus more attention on the fact that those jobs can't support a family?

> those jobs can't support a family Should they be able to? Absent some kind of deliberate regulatory or collective-bargaining action to prop up the price of labor in a given category, I assume the prevailing wages tend to reflect an implicit agreement between employers and potential employees on what that labor is worth. What is the argument for propping up the price of labor beyond what people are willing to do it…

Thanks for the thoughtful response. The argument for propping up the price of labor is that 1) we don't want working people to starve on the streets, 2) politically we've decided it's not the government's job to keep able-bodied workers off the streets. #1 is clearly right, while #2 should be up for debate.

As for wage floors killing jobs, the effect would depend on the height of the floor. Modest increases in the minimum wage have had practically no effect on employment, but I'm sure massive hikes would cause problems.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#303

Post by petra » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 9:47 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #277

petra wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My list of innovations, currently happening is a bit longer:it's yours, plus IOT, VR, synthetic bio, food engineering across the board, ~AI, robotics and automation, genetic engineering(maybe hundreds in clinical trials?), a lot of innovation in medicine, transportation(even without self-driving, on-demand microtransit could replace lots of cars, EV's, affordable super-sonic airplane in development, lighter-than air…

"Every person, the owner of a factory, able to profitably manufacture anything that they can design for a group of like-minded customers." That's the promise behind 3D printing + robotics + the Internet + drone delivery. "Live where your heart desires. Work on what your brain finds most interesting." Telecommuting + solar + mesh/satellite networking.

The first thing: it's remind me of Youtube which can, theoretically, make everybody a global star, yet only a rare few make a living out of it.

Really, a more economically realistic vision(depending on moore's law) would be high-quality VR for everybody, so everybody can be where their heart desires.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#304

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 10:14 PM UTC

magic_beans wrote: post #134

_pmf_ wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The anger that got trump elected is just the beginning if things don't change Try to get a single Democrat to acknowledge this. They are still belitteling and stigmatizing those who share these concerns (and riduculing them for their audacity of hoping that Trump will be able to change anything).

I'm a Democrat (or a bleeding-heart liberal if you will). I completely understand why people voted for Trump. I'm simply puzzled as to why many of the poor folks who voted for him would do so, as his election is clearly not going to help anyone who isn't in his tax bracket.

For many people, voting for an insider felt like voting for the status quo. Hillary was definitely an insider, and was from the same party as the sitting president. If your current conditions are terrible, why vote for more of the same?

Note well: I agree that electing Trump won't actually help these people whatsoever. But honestly, I'm not sure that electing Hillary would have helped them very much either...

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#305

Post by throwanem » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 10:30 PM UTC

Atheros wrote: post #297

throwanem wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I am skeptical of is the idea that people, once they reach adulthood and see dim prospects, turn to drugs to cope with that depression. Do you really find the idea of people self-medicating depression hard to encompass? I'm having a hard time myself, encompassing the idea that there is anywhere in the world this might seem like a controversial question.

He almost certainly understands that. But he is saying that he wants data that demonstrates that the economic hardship causes the depression rather than drug use causing the depression. Obviously these causes are all intertwined but I think he's saying that it probably isn't particularly unidirectional. "The man in this article was already an addict before he was old enough to have any perspective on his future poten…

FTA, my emphases:

> Johnson started using opioids in high school after breaking his collarbone, first in football and again while wrestling, and he got hooked on his prescription, his mother thinks. He was a functional addict at first, caring and warm, but things slipped out of control after he graduated and found that his skills—art and cooking, but not academics—meant little in the workforce.

In Arnade's formulation, this is how a front-row kid who succeeded looks at a back-row kid who failed. "Where's the numbers?" and "Always looked to me like drugs are for people without ambition in the first place." Which, fine, if that's how you want to look at it. But, speaking as a back-row kid who's known a lot of front-row people and had a lot of front-row jobs, it doesn't aid understanding.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#306

Post by jnicholasp » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 10:36 PM UTC

ChrisLTD wrote: post #302

jnicholasp wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those jobs can't support a family Should they be able to? Absent some kind of deliberate regulatory or collective-bargaining action to prop up the price of labor in a given category, I assume the prevailing wages tend to reflect an implicit agreement between employers and potential employees on what that labor is worth. What is the argument for propping up the price of labor beyond what people are willing to do it…

Thanks for the thoughtful response. The argument for propping up the price of labor is that 1) we don't want working people to starve on the streets, 2) politically we've decided it's not the government's job to keep able-bodied workers off the streets. #1 is clearly right, while #2 should be up for debate. As for wage floors killing jobs, the effect would depend on the height of the floor. Modest increases in the mi…

Thank you, too.

I'm not convinced that propping up the price of labor directly follows from your point 1), which I do of course agree with. It seems better to me that the government do what it can to encourage the creation of jobs that are valuable enough to support living wages, rather than mandate that jobs which are not valuable enough to do so cannot legally exist. The former, I think, encourages creativity and the development of new possibilities, while the latter restricts freedom and limits the diversity of the economic ecology.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#307

Post by breatheoften » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 11:00 PM UTC

prodmerc wrote: post #245

breatheoften wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like capitalism really needs something like a wealth tax -- ideally with the rate tied to the change in concentration of wealth over the whole society, so during periods of time when capital is concentrating, the wealth tax goes up vs epochs when it does not... Interestingly, I was reading about the idea of a wealth tax and came across this depressing nugget ...: > In 1999, Donald Trump proposed for the Unit…

Is that accurate? 15% could generate that much? That's mind boggling, I always assumed it would take a 50%+ tax on multimillionaires/billionaires...

I can't comment on accuracy but considering the source ... I wonder if there is even a way to find out -- I'm not sure if anything in existing tax code would serve as a good proxy for estimating "net worth".

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#308

Post by Jtsummers » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 11:31 PM UTC

narrowrail wrote: post #294

Jtsummers wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An armed revolt wouldn't just be going up against law enforcement. At that level of violence, they'd be going up against the National Guard (state militias), the US military (both active duty and reserve). Of course, across all three groups fighting against the revolters there will be both sympathizers and revolters themselves (I'd particularly expect to see this amongst local and state law enforcement and militias,…

The only person I've heard claim the US might suspend Posse Commitatus is Alex Jones. That is a serious supposition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act

The person I responded to was discussing law enforcement being overwhelmed by armed revolt. The Federal armed forces could be used in such a situation.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#309

Post by okreallywtf » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 11:49 PM UTC

dkhenry wrote: post #209

okreallywtf wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to think so but the political direction that a suffering white middle class is taking us I'm afraid will not improve things for everyone equally. Growing up in the rural south I have heard literally my entire life how most of our problems are caused by government greed and immigrant, not massive wealth inequality. At the same time on NPR you might hear about the terrible working conditions immigrants dea…

And to have the public discourse continue to separate people into groups based on race or gender or nationality is just a continuation of the problem. If you hear outcry against the plight of white americans in rural areas you make policies that effect white americans in rural areas. The race baiting continues and those who want to court the minority population start to show how one side only cares about the majority…

I think you describe well the perception but not at all the reality. Rural Americans have not been served well at all by the "one side that cares about the majority", its the total opposite. This is not a policy problem, this is all a perception problem.

First off, the majority of all people understand that there are poor white people, especially in rural areas that have had similar economic issues to minority groups for a long time. There is no economic issue (that I know of) that entirely effects any one group. Long standing race-based discrimination however has caused the left to focus more on minority groups however because they have generally been worse off (especially when compared against non-minorities as a whole). This doesn't mean we don't care about rural white Americans, its possible to care about many different things but also take into consideration that caring about minorities has been a great way to lose the votes and support of rural whites (welfare queens anyone?). It shouldn't be mutually exclusive but effective marketing has made it so.

As many people have pointed out, the problems working class white people are facing at increased rates (its not new, but its getting noticeably worse) have been a reality for minority groups for a long time and generally they are in fact worse off in every measurable metric as a group. The kinds of policies that the left propose that benefit people of color generally benefit poor and working class people in general (healthcare, education), but the left hasn't found a way to market itself to rural white Americans while also being the only major party to support minorities in general.

Also, I can't personally take offense at this but I've been seeing a LOT of statements like yours lately (race fatigue I'll call it) so I feel the need to address it. I'm quite sure that all people of color would be more than happy for race to no longer be an issue, and to make it out as if minorities are playing the race card when "the majority" are simply trying to move past race is ignorant if not downright insulting (my optimistic nature makes me want to think that it is accidental). Does that make sense? I understand where it comes from - you like I probably don't directly experience or observe overt racism or discrimination in our daily lives. We might see more occurrences of the opposite but that doesn't mean its not there and that our experiences are Representative of the country as a whole. If it weren't for good journalism and educational resources I wouldn't be really aware either.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#310

Post by okreallywtf » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 11:55 PM UTC

rfc wrote: post #231

okreallywtf wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that this result is available to everyone willing to work hard? If you come out of high-school and don't achieve this level of success did you fail or are people this outliers? We should try to make a path for success at all levels of education provided you are willing to work for it and not put all our hopes on high-performers and or lucky people.

I'm sure I'll get down voted for this comment but yes, I actually do think this result is available to everyone willing to work hard but not the only reason. The town I grew up in was very polarizing. We had both extreme wealth and extreme poor. As a retrospective, we had very equal opportunities from all income brackets. There were wealthy kids who had huge success but many others who fizzled out and didn't do anyth…

I kind of used it intentionally as a trigger word but there does seem to be a lot of chance in success stories. Also, how many people are going to tell the story about how they started a boring company that never hit it big? You are not going to hear about all the failed companies, you hear about successes. I agree with you that persistence and work ethic are probably major drivers in success but to say there is no element of chance and it is entirely on you if you succeed or not seems highly unlikely.