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H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

economist.com

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Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#371

Post by castratikron »

zzleeper wrote: post #98

I went through the entire comment thread and feel like you guys are missing a lot of the H1B benefits by focusing just on tech and the effect of the Indian consultancies. Most PhDs, specially in STEM, math, stats, econ, etc. are not American. And almost all of them end up with a H1B visa at some point if they remain in the US. It might be lottery based if you go to work at any firm, or quota-free if it is in academia…

I'll throw my potatoes into the pot:

I don't know of any serious active effort to kill the H1B. I think that would be a disaster for the tech industry as large companies like the ones you mentioned rely on foreign talent.

The only effort I'm aware of is to raise the minimum salary to qualify for an H1B. Right now, the minimum is $60k, which, in the US, is very low for a legitimate programming job. I'm certain that H1B workers at Boeing or Amazon are getting paid more than the minimum right now. However, there do exist shops out there who exploit H1B visas for cheap labor; I've experienced them firsthand. They aren't as uncommon as you might think.

There is talk of raising the minimum to something like $120k. Surely, a PhD trained researcher at Boeing or Amazon is worth at least that. They are probably already getting paid the prevailing wage for their labor, which is a legal requirement of an H1B. In these cases, raising the minimum will not affect them at all.

Recall that the original purpose of the H1B was to fill a demand for high tech, specialist roles. Is there any high tech, specialist role that is only worth $60k these days? I don't think so.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#372

Post by khana »

ouesp wrote: post #370

H1B as I see it. American corporations want to make profit year over year. (The announcing the quarterly or annual reports ? ) IT jobs has a tradition of being highly paid. When the revenues are less, the course of action is to cut the expenses and hence the salaries. So if a corporation want to make profit, they can hire workers with the minimum lawful wage. Indian bodyshops are catering to that demand. Its that sim…

Boom! Nailed it.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#373

Post by ouesp »

tenpoundhammer wrote: post #153
diebir wrote: post #48

Of course they ought to just increase the number of H1-B visas... They have always been a drop in the bucket on the technology market, even in the worst times (2001 and 2009). These are the future immigrants that we want in the US, highly educated, driven, mobile upwards and ready to buy a house. If you can't find a job or compete with H1-Bs in this economy you probably should consider another occupation. I work for…

I've worked for 2 fortune 500 companies that have brought in multiple low payed H1-b visas instead of hiring at the standard US rate. As an engineer I was part of the hiring process. All of the candidates at both places ended up being far less qualified than Wipro claimed and did a terrible job. So it definitely happens, I'd say it happens a lot. There are also great H1-b hires like the one I'm working with right now…

If his I-140 is approved, make sure he wont lose his line in the long long queue for the greencard. ( 10 years ). Switching H1B is not that easy as it sounds. It comes with its own set of complications depending on what stage you are in for the process of greencard.

heck ! ask him to apply Canada express entry and forget H1B. There are good IT in Canada too if he is skilled enough.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#374

Post by jldugger »

netheril96 wrote: post #317
jldugger wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the topic of H-1B CS / programmers, a good chunk of them are not paying tuition, but rather working as GTAs and GRAs for stipends and tuition waivers. By and large, tuition does not fund CS departments, research does.

That is only for PhDs. Masters, who comprise a large part of foreign programmers, pay a lot and receive little to no stipends or waivers.

It's not only PhDs. I was a Masters student who worked as a GTA and GRA. The dept head of the CS program I work under now has repeatedly told faculty to focus on hiring more PhDs and fewer masters students.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#375

Post by ouesp »

flukus wrote: post #253
jeevand wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a miracle. Indians immigrating to US are more educated than the general US population [1] (40.6% have graduate degree, 32.3% have bachelor's). Have you also thought about why Indian American kids win spelling bee's or Jews win Nobel Prize disproportionately when compared to their population? Comparing Indians or Asians to blacks is not fair. They are mostly recent immigrants (except few brought in as labour…

> Have you also thought about why Indian American kids win spelling bee's Because their parents and education system still focus on rote learning, we moved on from that waste of time decades ago.

Asians are good at Math than Americans. Is that rote learning too ?

> we moved on from that waste of time decades ago.

No wonder Asians are taking over.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#376

Post by ouesp »

MarkMc wrote: post #316
hamstergene wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many of the indian workers are still better off economically than they might otherwise be, even if they are not as well off as their american counterparts. Isn't that exactly the main criticism of current H1B system: driving down salaries and standard of living away from U.S. standards down towards India's? However better off they are economically they would be even better if companies couldn't exploit their status…

I completely agree that H1B visas drive drives down salaries for US workers. But I cannot see how Indian workers are worse off.

Indian workers are worse off, because they pay the same amount of taxes as an American worker with no salary hikes or promotions. Stuck with the same job for years. No freedom of job portability. Spouses cannot work, always at the edge of relocating based on where the bodyshops deploy them.

The H1B visa is for 6 years temporary stay, but the H1B worker pays for SSN which he have no use of.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#377

Post by gragas »

shripadk wrote: post #299
gragas wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Have you also thought about why Indian American kids win spelling bee's or Jews win Nobel Prize disproportionately when compared to their population? You make me laugh. Indians are nowhere close to Jews. Sure, Indians make up 1% of the US population, but they also make up almost one fifth of Earth's population as a whole . There are more than one billion Indians on Earth. If you want to play the "maybe they're just…

> You make me laugh. Indians are nowhere close to Jews. Sure, Indians make up 1% of the US population, but they also make up almost one fifth of Earth's population as a whole. There are more than one billion Indians on Earth. The problem really is that you are comparing a geographic (Indian) to followers of a religion (Jews). Indians can be Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Atheists, Christians or even Jews.…

>The problem really is that you are comparing a geographic (Indian) to followers of a religion (Jews).

Wrong. Keep telling yourself what you want to hear. I'm talking about Jewish ancestry (i.e., genetics), not Jewish faith. Essentially all of the genius Ashkenazi Jews were non-practicing:

- John Von Neumann

- Albert Einstein

- Bobby Fischer

- Richard Feynman

- Sigmund Freud

- Hans Bethe

- Eugene Wigner

- Milton Friedman

- Karl Marx

- Noam Chomsky

- Scarlett Johansson

You can even read this astounding section on Wikipeida: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#Notable_Ashkena...

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#378

Post by beagle3 »

scythe wrote: post #283
rajathagasthya wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should've put out a disclaimer in my previous comment, I was an F1 student now working in SV as an H1B. So I've to state my bias. Why do you think it should be independent? F1 students pay a lot of money to study here and I think there should be a fairly easy path to work for a considerable amount of time here. I believe it's mutually beneficial. But I'd love to know alternative views.

I believe his implication was that the F-1 should allow for a post-study work-residence period without the individual having to acquire an H1B or other residency visa. This would constitute an overall relaxation of immigration restrictions, particularly in your case.

Indeed, I was thinking of extending the 1-year post study work allowance of the f-1 to three, or something along those lines.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#379

Post by humanrebar »

FooBarJmp wrote: post #250
int_19h wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an ex-H1B MSFT employee, there are a few data points I can share. First, to the best of my knowledge, my salary was not lower than that of my colleagues with citizenship at any point. Nor did I get fewer perks, formally or informally (ability to take days off as and when needed etc). Second, my H1B status was never used as leverage when talking about raises, amount of time spent at work, and so on. I was never pre…

As a manager in MSFT. I can assure you that salaries aren't any different for H1B versus Citizens. I myself had a hard time find great native talents that I ended up hiring quite a few Canadians.

This thread has many comments that either ignore or are unaware of the basic economics of the situation. The contention isn't that H1Bs are paid differently. The argument is that a market with 50k more H1B engineers will result in a lower salary for a U.S. resident with that skill set.

In other words, if people with that skill set were more scarce, compensation would be higher and eventually more U.S. residents would be attracted into to the field.

There may be good points against that contention, but this thread is mostly talking past it.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#380

Post by steego »

clairity wrote: post #136
dmitrygr wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, nobody wants that effect. We want the PhDs. What we do not want it companies that bring in cheap barely-qualified labour for cost-cutting. This hurts the people brought in (they are stuck in bad jobs with bad pay and no way out). This hurts the local workers who cost too much compared to this effectively-slave-labour. The hard part changing the rules such that PhDs and other productive uses of H1B do not su…

"This hurts the people brought in (they are stuck in bad jobs with bad pay and no way out)." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i agree with everything you said except for this part. many of the indian workers are still better off economically than they might otherwise be, even if they are not as well off as their american counterparts. in any case, we should let every person seeking higher education in the US work indefinitely in this…

> many of the indian workers are still better off economically than they might otherwise be

Isn't this obvious? You can be stuck in a job with bad pay and still be better off than if you were in your home country. This is the fundamental condition that was ripe for exploitation.

The solution is to remove any and all incentive and mechanisms for companies to entrap employees and push wages down. I want people who come here to work to enjoy the same salaries we enjoy, and I want them to be able to quickly/easily change jobs when their current employer isn't paying them enough.

I don't know about you, but I'm getting tired of these schemes to exploit bad policy to hire cheap foreign workers. I don't want to live in a country where people associate Mexicans with cheap farm labor and contracting work and Indians with cheap IT workers. This sort of shit seeds to the worst types of prejudices, seeds racist resentment and can leads to drastic/fascist solutions.

Call me an egalitarian sap, but I think we'd all be better off if we didn't have policies that allow companies to profit off of people's prejudices.

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