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H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

economist.com

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Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#291

Post by jordanb »

aanm1988 wrote: post #134
inlinefordecade wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is good that other companies are catching up. But, MSFT got the AWICA and AC-21 acts passed decades ago, which directly resulted in indentured servitude. MSFT lobbyists are the founders and architects of the "indentured servitude".

I'm starting to find the "indentured servitude" thing really pretty irritating. Comparing being a highly paid tech worker with some issues changing jobs to an illegal form of (essentially) slavery is ridiculous. I also don't really see how either act causes the problems you are describing.

Indentured Servitude is exactly the relationship that exists for many on H1-B. It's not even hyperbole.

This is especially true for people trying to get a green card. The employer can use the green card process to ensure the worker has no career mobility. And this process can take many years.

Interestingly it is NOT Tata/Infosys/WIPRO who are using the green card trick. They don't sponsor green cards. They just rotate people to and from the US and are very upfront about it. It's MSFT, Google, Apple, etc who are using the green card process to indenture their employees.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#292

Post by ra7 »

johnnyb9 wrote: post #252
an_account wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the opposite at many public universities. "Out of state" and international students subsidize in state students because they pay far greater tuition.

I have trouble believing students are paying less tuition because there is a greater demand from international students. If anything, the tuition would be higher. That international students are more profitable doesn't change the value of the degree or what everyone else is willing to pay for it.

> If anything, the tuition would be higher.

It is higher, but for out-of-state and international students. That's how public universities have been able to offset low in-state tuition and raise more financial aid.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#293

Post by aangjie »

pm90 wrote: post #82
prasadjoglekar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H1 visa prohibits all paid work except for the sponsoring employer. This lock-in is precisely what makes these visas lucrative to TCS etc. Removing the lack of mobility will remove a big perverse incentive.

While it is a big incentive for sure, I wouldn't be so quick to dismissive it as the main incentive. A lot of the people who are "indentured servants" (as the people here like to say) are not really the kind of people who would "jump ship". In fact, the selection process is already such that only the really pliant ones are sent to the US. Which makes me doubt whether this step would make any difference to the problem…

> In fact, the selection process is already such that only the really pliant ones are sent to the US. Indian working in India. Can second that. I used to work for the Big Blue in India, it's the yes-guys that got the visa processing approval from managers.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#294

Post by xtreme »

urbanxs wrote: post #11

As a european there is almost 0 chance of going In the us. H1B go to indians, low paid jobs to mexicans. I dont mind either of them, but allowing europeans in would be less discriminatory.

Well at least if you do get your H1B, you can get a green card rather quickly (within a year or so). Most Indian and Chinese nationals have to wait for more than 10 years in the queue before they are even eligible to apply.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#295

Post by rajathagasthya »

scythe wrote: post #283
rajathagasthya wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should've put out a disclaimer in my previous comment, I was an F1 student now working in SV as an H1B. So I've to state my bias. Why do you think it should be independent? F1 students pay a lot of money to study here and I think there should be a fairly easy path to work for a considerable amount of time here. I believe it's mutually beneficial. But I'd love to know alternative views.

I believe his implication was that the F-1 should allow for a post-study work-residence period without the individual having to acquire an H1B or other residency visa. This would constitute an overall relaxation of immigration restrictions, particularly in your case.

If that was the implication, then I agree with it. But this exact discussion is what's missing in the whole H1B debate.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#296

Post by burfog »

whitenoice wrote: post #237
gragas wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's not true. The American Universities don't choose to admit foreign students just because. The good schools always try to balance the mix of students admitted into the program. Then why do Indians make up more than 30% of my school's CS program, despite them making up less than 1% of the US population?

Probably cause the admission committee thought all those students are equally talented as you are. India has a huge population with 50% of its population below the age of 25. India and China together are close to 1/3rd of the worlds population. You should be happy the you are getting to interact with the cream of smart students from these countries :) Key part of education is learning and working with your smart peer…

You don't get to interact, learn with, and work with them. They separate themselves from you. They speak their own language, which isn't easy to learn. They don't celebrate your holidays, either national or religious. Since they are likely leaving the country, neither professional nor romantic relationships are likely to be viable. Half of the ones from India even sort of despise you based on religion.

So in a classroom, you and they may occupy chairs, but to each it's like the other people might as well not be there. This puts you farther from the front of the class and gives you less time to interact with the instructor, but you gain nothing for your loss. The hallways are more crowded, but with fewer people you know. It's the same in the cafeteria, where you might want to meet people. The dating scene is cut in half, assuming 50% non-American.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#297

Post by jldugger »

an_account wrote: post #238
hiram112 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Guess who benefits then? Not the US. If demand at US universities goes down, they might just have to reduce prices. Yeah that would certainly suck for the millions of recent college grads working gig jobs, indebted with tens of thousands of dollars.

Actually the opposite at many public universities. "Out of state" and international students subsidize in state students because they pay far greater tuition.

At least in the topic of H-1B CS / programmers, a good chunk of them are not paying tuition, but rather working as GTAs and GRAs for stipends and tuition waivers. By and large, tuition does not fund CS departments, research does.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#298

Post by an_cap »

aangjie wrote: post #273
an_cap wrote: post #258

Suppose we lived in an America in which if a black person wanted to work in the tech industry they had to get a special license from the federal government called the H-1Black license. Nobody here on HN would then be discussing if companies were abusing the H-1Black system or whether H-1Black workers were being paid less than the going market rate. A minimally decent person would notice that the obviously correct thi…

I'll take the bait.. > Why is it not okay to discriminate on the basis of race or gender but okay to discriminate on the basis of citizenship/country of birth? Because, a country and it's city, and infrastructure have been built by money spent on by a bunch of people who paid taxes. For a another country, person to come in enjoy the infrastructure, make money and compete with the ones who paid for the infrastructure…

I am somewhat sympathetic to this argument but only with the following revisions.

An adult foreigner coming to the US has, if anything, better fiscal implications for the US than the children of American citizens since children need are very likely a net fiscal negative for say the first 18 years of their lives. New Americans, whether they are formed by birth, or by immigration enjoy the existing infrastructure without having paid for it.

If you say that American parents have already paid taxes on behalf of their children then I'll say that American employers have already paid taxes on behalf of their foreign employees. I'm fine with having a consistent 'entry fee' for all new Americans as long as said entry fee applies uniformly to both children of Americans and foreigners who wish to immigrate.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#299

Post by shripadk »

gragas wrote: post #245
jeevand wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a miracle. Indians immigrating to US are more educated than the general US population [1] (40.6% have graduate degree, 32.3% have bachelor's). Have you also thought about why Indian American kids win spelling bee's or Jews win Nobel Prize disproportionately when compared to their population? Comparing Indians or Asians to blacks is not fair. They are mostly recent immigrants (except few brought in as labour…

>Have you also thought about why Indian American kids win spelling bee's or Jews win Nobel Prize disproportionately when compared to their population? You make me laugh. Indians are nowhere close to Jews. Sure, Indians make up 1% of the US population, but they also make up almost one fifth of Earth's population as a whole . There are more than one billion Indians on Earth. If you want to play the "maybe they're just…

> You make me laugh. Indians are nowhere close to Jews. Sure, Indians make up 1% of the US population, but they also make up almost one fifth of Earth's population as a whole. There are more than one billion Indians on Earth.

The problem really is that you are comparing a geographic (Indian) to followers of a religion (Jews). Indians can be Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Atheists, Christians or even Jews. It's wrong to compare 1 billion Indians of various ethnicities, cultures and religions with followers of a single religion - Jews.

> Of course you will see a generally smart group of people when you specifically only let in the top 0.0001% of the Indian population to begin with.

Also saying that top 0.0001% of Indian populace go to the US is another fallacy. Firstly, you are making an assumption that the top 0.0001% of Indian populace apply to the US in the first place. There is no data to back this up. Secondly, most of the top/successful Indian businessman are from India and not Indian-Americans. Sure, Indian-Americans are on average more successful and wealthy than the average Indian on account of being in an already developed country. That does not mean they are crème de la crème. There is not even a single Indian-American who is as successful, influential or powerful as Ratan Tata, Anil/Mukesh Ambani, Gautam Adani, Azim Premji or even Narayan Murthy. Show me one Indian-American founded company that can compete with the scale of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku6SAMsyHbo

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#300

Post by piyush_soni »

godzilla82 wrote: post #259
whitenoice wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than students it would suck for universities, less funding, less infrastructure growth, it would cause a domino effect. If not US then somewhere else, students will figure it out, they are young but it will have a long lasting effect on US. If talented students don't have options out side their home country they will improve the conditions of their home country and cause less brain drain. Especially China and In…

I think students want to study in US (or are willing to pay to study in US) is because after completing education there, they are eligible to find work there. I dont think students want to spend great sums of money studying overseas, because they dont have options in their own country.

Presumptuous. A lot of students study in the US because their country really doesn't have that level or quality of education accessible. I was perfectly happy salary-wise in my own country, but the institutions of higher education here mainly believed a Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering can't be a good candidate for Masters in Computer Science. I thus had to apply to some good US Universities as they didn't have that problem. After studying there (and yes, I worked there for few years to expose myself to international work culture) I came back to my home country. I know many such people who went to US to study only because they didn't have such quality of education at their respective places. Also, when I worked in the US I don't think I was the 'cheap H-1B labor', I believe I contributed to the company and the US economy as well with my work.
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