Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie • Hacker News Board

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#51

Post by munchbunny » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 10:23 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

Rather than nitpick on the wording, I think you should try to see the underlying point. It's unfortunate phrasing, but the point isn't about how hard you work or whether it's important to have a good work ethic.

I liked this article better, and it conveys more or less the same point as the topic link:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/opinion/how-i-learned-to-...

The problem is that hard work makes a dent, but not a very big one if you don't understand the "game" that you need to play. It's easy to take this for granted if you grow up in an environment with many people who understand it because you learn it by osmosis.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#52

Post by tajen » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 10:26 PM UTC

sjg007 wrote: post #5

mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

Did you read the article? It's about his life where he worked hard and got lucky to escape poverty and attend Oxford. He criticizes the system because it is inherently biased to the privileged so he argues that we need to do better.

That's my problem:

> My mother gave birth to 12 children

Having 12 children is completely out of responsibility. Yet we saved this guy from poverty. Now what, not only the guy is barely thankful, but he claims that people should be able to reproduce this error and get the same incredibly good outcome – and it's a right? What about no?

He shows no understanding of what is normal; Growing from 12th-child of farmer parents to barrister in less than one generation is already a privilege; I'd be happy if my grand son had the same social status as I have already. Be humble. There's a lot of things to learn to rise in society, from not having TV to various attitudes about trading in business, from attitude about alcohol to relaxation things (or religion if that's your thing); No, if you don't educate your child, or if teach him that being a barrista is good enough, then he won't be able to become barrister despite his parents. But he's free to edicate his children better, that's how it works.

The XXI century is stuck in a wrong expectation that governments are supposed to compensate for your parents' life choices and make you a lawyer. To me, it explains why people are more and more polarized, on one side those who accuse the riches of stealing their right to equality (whatever that means), on the other people who grow a big expertise at getting deaf to such claims (and, unfortunately, they tilt towards not listening to any claims regarding rights, even older ones which were reasonable enough to survive the ages, like voting and democracy). Want to protect your democracy? Be reasonable with your claims, rights and expectations.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#53

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 10:41 PM UTC

tajen wrote: post #52

sjg007 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? It's about his life where he worked hard and got lucky to escape poverty and attend Oxford. He criticizes the system because it is inherently biased to the privileged so he argues that we need to do better.

That's my problem: > My mother gave birth to 12 children Having 12 children is completely out of responsibility. Yet we saved this guy from poverty. Now what, not only the guy is barely thankful, but he claims that people should be able to reproduce this error and get the same incredibly good outcome – and it's a right? What about no? He shows no understanding of what is normal; Growing from 12th-child of farmer pare…

Non-Western cultures and Catholics both have a bias towards large families. As a survival strategy, it often makes perfect sense in those different cultural settings.

>The XXI century is stuck in a wrong expectation that governments are supposed to compensate for your parents' life choices.

No, it's really not. "Choices" are a luxury, not a given.

You need a good education and a personal or family tradition of researching and understanding outcomes to make useful choices. Those are not the default for most families.

Even if that weren't true, governments should not, in fact, compensate anyone for anything. What they should do is perform a cost/benefit analysis and work out which social mitigation strategies provide the best overall returns.

Does it cost less to house the homeless or to keep them on the streets, where they're a drain on all kinds of services?

Simple moralising can't answer that question. Objective, rational, research can. And when you do objective, rational, research, you often find that naive decisions based on simple-minded moralising tend to produces expensive, low-efficiency outcomes.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#54

Post by mindcrime » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 10:42 PM UTC

frooxie wrote: post #20

mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

If we tell people the dangerous false idea that hard work is the main factor that makes someone rich or successful, we could end up with a terrible society where the rich feel they have no responsibility to help the less fortunate (by e.g. providing universal healthcare), because they must simply have been lazy – even though most rich people started out rich, and even the rich people who started out poor and worked h…

While hard work is important, their success was also partially due to luck and the work of others, and they should never forget that.

Agreed. My problem is with this meme that seems to have become pervasive over the last year or two, which seems to posit that, effectively, everything comes down to luck. Clearly the actual truth is somewhere between the extremes of "it's all luck" and "it's all hard work". My response here is a reaction to what I perceive as a swinging of the pendulum towards the "it's all luck" mindset, to a degree that I think is damaging.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#55

Post by mindcrime » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 10:44 PM UTC

bherms wrote: post #50

mcbruiser3 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because his message is unclear, clearly. even smart people on HN seems to be confused about his message. a good writer is not confusing.

Seems more likely that the original commenter probably didn't actually read the article and just had a reaction to the title.

No, I read and understood the article. If I'm guilty of anything, it's reacting to more than just what this article is saying. But it strikes me as just one more in a long series of articles / essays / comments that have emerged over the past few years which, collectively, are promoting a message that denigrates the value of hard work and suggest that pretty much everything comes down to luck.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#56

Post by mindcrime » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 10:49 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #46

mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

The strawman is yours. The author clearly does not believe or say that hard work doesn't matter at all. That's obvious to anyone who actually read it instead of having a knee-jerk reaction to the title and not even bothering to quote-mine before responding. All he's saying is that hard work is only one factor, and that others must be addressed for that hard work to earn its just reward.

That's obvious to anyone who actually read it instead of having a knee-jerk reaction to the title

It's not just this article alone, that's the thing. It's the broader meme that this article aligns with, which denigrates the value of hard work and - IMO - over-emphasizes luck.

That said, if you want quote-mining, here ya go. One that I a wholeheartedly agree with. It just feels a bit tacked on near the end.

We need to do more to double down on improving environments both at home and at school which continuously constrain potential. If the adage that hard work truly matters rings true, then we must do more – at all levels of society – to make it a reality.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#57

Post by user5994461 » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 10:50 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #14

chronic940 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you propose we give free scholarships, jobs, and tax breaks to those who end up unlucky? I was unlucky and had medical problems in college. I deserve some relief. But I'm also a co-founder of a decent startup. Am I lucky or unlucky?

You were lucky and unlucky. You have probably worked hard but you may also have been co-founder of a bad startup and lost everything. Or you could have gone bankrupt because of medical bills. You definitely should work hard but by no means there is a guarantee you will succeed. You also need some luck.

co-founder of a startup, I'd interpret that as he has nothing and he lives in the most expensive area in the world.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#58

Post by chc » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 10:54 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #54

frooxie wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we tell people the dangerous false idea that hard work is the main factor that makes someone rich or successful, we could end up with a terrible society where the rich feel they have no responsibility to help the less fortunate (by e.g. providing universal healthcare), because they must simply have been lazy – even though most rich people started out rich, and even the rich people who started out poor and worked h…

While hard work is important, their success was also partially due to luck and the work of others, and they should never forget that. Agreed. My problem is with this meme that seems to have become pervasive over the last year or two, which seems to posit that, effectively, everything comes down to luck. Clearly the actual truth is somewhere between the extremes of "it's all luck" and "it's all hard work". My response…

I think the thing is that the luck is much more make-or-break than the work. Luck can make how much work you've done irrelevant, but no amount of work can make luck irrelevant. For example, the "cash me ousside" girl didn't do any work, but now is more successful than I am by sheer weird luck. Meanwhile, lots of people have put in stupendous amounts of work and still ended up with bad results just because they were unlucky (remember, despite being beloved of the Internet nowadays, Nikola Tesla died penniless and alone).

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#59

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 10:55 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #30

sp332 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The job market isn't static like that. If there are lots of highly educated people, there will be new jobs created to take advantage of their skills. There might be more competition or there might not be, and it's definitely not a linear correlation.

There is a lot more to entrepreneurship than a high education level. Young people are more educated than ever, yet small business creation is lower than ever[1]. A business requires startup capital, which is tough to gain when you must start your career in $40k-$100k in debt. The salaries of recent grads have been lower, too. Cost of living, especially in housing and medical expenses, is going up every year. With dwi…

Your first point depends on your definition of "educated." I'm unconvinced that young people are more educated than ever, because education includes broad critical/creative thinking. It's not cookbook mimicry bounded by a narrow set of choices in a common problem space.

It's the difference between "I made a new web framework" and Vannevar Bush or John von Neumann.

As for cost of debt - yes, it gets much harder to innovate when access to free capital is rationed. Rationing and hoarding capital is actually one of the dumbest things a capitalist culture can do. "Hard work" won't fix this.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#60

Post by user5994461 » Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 10:56 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #53

tajen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my problem: > My mother gave birth to 12 children Having 12 children is completely out of responsibility. Yet we saved this guy from poverty. Now what, not only the guy is barely thankful, but he claims that people should be able to reproduce this error and get the same incredibly good outcome – and it's a right? What about no? He shows no understanding of what is normal; Growing from 12th-child of farmer pare…

Non-Western cultures and Catholics both have a bias towards large families. As a survival strategy, it often makes perfect sense in those different cultural settings. >The XXI century is stuck in a wrong expectation that governments are supposed to compensate for your parents' life choices. No, it's really not. "Choices" are a luxury, not a given. You need a good education and a personal or family tradition of resear…

Catholics and western cultures also have a bias toward large familes.

Try going back one or two more generations in your genealogy if you can't see it closer.

Sadly and I hate to break it up. Having 10 children a few generations ago used to go with a very high mortality rate, even in Western Europe.