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Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

theguardian.com

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Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#11

Post by chronic940 »

maxxxxx wrote: post #8
mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

"As the old saying goes: "It is better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim at the gutter and hit it". Or another take on it: "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." " These are fine. However, there is also the belief that all people who have reached the stars have worked hard or that people who haven't reached stars just haven't worked enough. These are wrong. Success is a combinatio…

So do you propose we give free scholarships, jobs, and tax breaks to those who end up unlucky?

I was unlucky and had medical problems in college. I deserve some relief. But I'm also a co-founder of a decent startup. Am I lucky or unlucky?

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#13

Post by wavefunction »

maxxxxx wrote: post #8
mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

"As the old saying goes: "It is better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim at the gutter and hit it". Or another take on it: "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." " These are fine. However, there is also the belief that all people who have reached the stars have worked hard or that people who haven't reached stars just haven't worked enough. These are wrong. Success is a combinatio…

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."

Funnily enough the moon is much closer than the stars. ;)

I think success is a matter of preparation, opportunity/luck and 'hard work' in the form of dedication when the opportunity presents itself.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#14

Post by maxxxxx »

chronic940 wrote: post #11
maxxxxx wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As the old saying goes: "It is better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim at the gutter and hit it". Or another take on it: "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." " These are fine. However, there is also the belief that all people who have reached the stars have worked hard or that people who haven't reached stars just haven't worked enough. These are wrong. Success is a combinatio…

So do you propose we give free scholarships, jobs, and tax breaks to those who end up unlucky? I was unlucky and had medical problems in college. I deserve some relief. But I'm also a co-founder of a decent startup. Am I lucky or unlucky?

You were lucky and unlucky. You have probably worked hard but you may also have been co-founder of a bad startup and lost everything. Or you could have gone bankrupt because of medical bills.

You definitely should work hard but by no means there is a guarantee you will succeed. You also need some luck.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#16

Post by anigbrowl »

Quite so. Hard work will absolutely help you advance in your endeavors, but if your hard work advances others more than it advances you - which is true for an awful lot of people - then you are being used and when your utility is exhausted you will be cast aside without a second thought.

This argument is not, as some have claimed, an excuse for apathy. Rather, it argues that accepting the prevailing socioeconomic norms is foolish for anyone who is not close to the apex of society. The level playing field and other such political tropes are false, there is abundant evidence of this, and anyone who tells you otherwise either lying to you or to themselves.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#17

Post by 011235813213455 »

mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

Nowhere in that article does he say that hard work doesn't matter at all.

>What I have learned in this short period of time is that the pervasive narrative of “if you work hard you will get on” is a complete myth. It’s not true and we need stop saying it. This is because “working hard, and doing the right thing” barely gets you to the starting line. Furthermore, it means something completely different depending on to which context you’re applying this particular notion. So much more is required.

If you note what he says at the end of that paragraph, it becomes obvious that what he's trying to get across is that you absolutely need hard work, but that will give you only the bare minimum to have a chance and it's definitely not a guarantee that you will do well.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#18

Post by anigbrowl »

sergiotapia wrote: post #12

"The harder I work the luckier I get." comes to mind.

People in coal mines work pretty hard. Are they getting luckier, do you think? This is an absolutely great maxim for people who are fortunate or wise enough to be working on developing their own abilities and position. For the majority of people who are working hard to get paid to pay bills to have life's necessities, but don't have much energy or idea what to do beyond that, it's a cruel joke.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#19

Post by djschnei »

Telling children 'hard work won't get you to the top' is simply a lie, also. Success has an endless number of variables and they are all weighted differently for every individual. Fact is, your work ethic is a variable you control - Teaching children that is important.

Alas, teaching children (and adults) they're but one of a larger group of victims is, and will always be, a political juggernaut.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#20

Post by frooxie »

mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

If we tell people the dangerous false idea that hard work is the main factor that makes someone rich or successful, we could end up with a terrible society where the rich feel they have no responsibility to help the less fortunate (by e.g. providing universal healthcare), because they must simply have been lazy – even though most rich people started out rich, and even the rich people who started out poor and worked hard still owe their success partially to being lucky enough not to have been randomly afflicted by some disease, by growing up in a society that provided them opportunities for education and business, etc.

So if your kids turned out more successful than others, don't tell them it was just because they dreamt big and worked hard. While hard work is important, their success was also partially due to luck and the work of others, and they should never forget that.

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