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How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

nytimes.com

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Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#201

Post by gommm »

imesh wrote: post #97
alltakendamned wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> French kindergarteners spend 90 minutes sitting down to a white-table-cloth four course meal each day during school. No they don't, I'm not quite sure where you could've got the idea ?

Why we supposed to copy everything the French do? Aren't they regarded as rude? That implies​ not being considerate...

In term of perceived rudeness of French people, I think a lot of it is communication barrier (it's better now and it's changing but French people on average suck at speaking English and are self conscious about it) and the fact that Parisians are universally seen by French people as being ever so slightly snobbish and rude.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#202

Post by zaptheimpaler »

59nadir wrote: post #189
pcarolan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't making the point that society was in charge of my kids, rather that society needs to be tolerant of kids nature and adapt to it to some degree. I can get my kid to sit still, but its not his natural state so I don't often do it. I am glad that there are places you can take your kid to join and indoctrinate them into cultures you want to identify with. I am glad there are options. I would not choose french ci…

I don't think other people should necessarily have to accept that you prefer not to keep your child reasonably quiet, as an example, in public. Understanding that kids will be kids doesn't mean understanding that you as a parent prefer not to teach your kid how to act in public. It might seem harsh, but you really do paint the image of someone who thinks it's fine for his kid to keep screaming and running around in p…

Sometimes, the majority is wrong. There are many kids who might be hyperactive due to a quirk of their mind/body - say ADHD or a hyper fast metabolism. People don't see these things and expect kids who are really different to be the same as the rest. For that kind of a kid, the value tradeoff between keeping still and not disturbing anyone else vs. not can be very different if they cannot express themselves.

Society ROUTINELY throws minorities under the bus because we have simply accepted that a small inconvenience for a majority could not possibly be worth paying if it helps a few people a lot. I think the cultural sentiment you're talking about is really just "agree with everyone else, or else risk exclusion" - the usual extortion. The same reasoning can justify much worse things. Humans are very social and children are partly raised by the society around them - people deny it because they don't want to have to change.

Just to be clear, I'm really against this because the parent said he can keep his child still, but its not the child's natural state. And you go and call him a "bad parent" for not stifling his kid. Bullshit.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#203

Post by 59nadir »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #202
59nadir wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think other people should necessarily have to accept that you prefer not to keep your child reasonably quiet, as an example, in public. Understanding that kids will be kids doesn't mean understanding that you as a parent prefer not to teach your kid how to act in public. It might seem harsh, but you really do paint the image of someone who thinks it's fine for his kid to keep screaming and running around in p…

Sometimes, the majority is wrong. There are many kids who might be hyperactive due to a quirk of their mind/body - say ADHD or a hyper fast metabolism. People don't see these things and expect kids who are really different to be the same as the rest. For that kind of a kid, the value tradeoff between keeping still and not disturbing anyone else vs. not can be very different if they cannot express themselves. Society…

> the parent said he can keep his child still, but its not the child's natural state.

The child can be in its natural state in the privacy of their own home, not in public where it's a bother for everyone else. If we were talking about a child with real issues that could be blamed on disorders, it wouldn't just be about "natural state" and whatnot, and as you say the parent is able to keep the child quiet, proving it's just him preferring to not be considerate to his environment.

> And you go and call him a "bad parent" for not stifling his kid. Bullshit.

Screaming and running around in public doesn't foster any desirable or productive behavior on the part of the child, as far as I can imagine. I don't think it'll ever be in the favor of the child. All it really does is inconvenience people that didn't ask to deal with the noise of the child.

Edit: I want to add that I think there's a lot more that goes into being a bad parent, by the way. The only thing this "Society will have to adapt to me" behavior shows is a general lack of respect for other people and putting your convenience before them.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#204

Post by epmaybe »

conorh wrote: post #100
smackingly wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm biased because I'm a no-name physician at a community hospital, but the "best doctors" in my eyes are the ones with the best outcomes, lowest utilization, highest efficiency and highest patient satisfaction. These measures don't correlate well with the physician's credentials. I learned this in residency, which I did just down the street from a "top" university hospital. We out-performed that place on every…

> "These measures don't correlate well with the physician's credentials." This. I think I've even posted about this here before. This has been my wife's experience too (surgeon). She trained with highly regarded academic surgeons that set the treatment recommendations and standards for her field. Then during her job search she went to a center with, well, surgeons not at all academic and she had a life changing momen…

I think it depends on the academic center. Where I'm at some of the clinicians that don't do any research are some of the most highly regarded faculty.

I'd say a good combination of both academics and skills are needed. As another anecdote, where I am in school they have tried to teach us better clinical reasoning and procedural skills rather than solely preparing us for board exams.

The way I see it, your research and academic pursuits can wait until you have a good clinical background. You only have one chance to fully immerse yourself in the practice of medicine (residency), so why dilute that?

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#205

Post by arkades »

77pt77 wrote: post #93
aleem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From one of the comments on the article > Backing off will no more produce a creative genius than pushing your child. Neither strategy makes the slightest difference to what is essentially an autonomous process. Beethoven's father did not back off. And Lars von Trier's parents left him to his own devices. Both are geniuses and both hated their childhood. > My guess is that most parents who follow Adam Grant's spuriou…

> Feynman realized this when he tried to teach his children and discovered that what worked for his son did not work for his daughter. Feynman's son was his biological offspring, while the daughter was adopted. I think this is relevant information that was left out. Edit: Also, Feynman's son chose to pursuit philosophy, much to Feynman's dismay.

In an article discussing the dispensation of advice to the parenting community as a whole - which includes the whole variety of genetic heterogeneity - her being adopted isn't relevant.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#206

Post by rdlecler1 »

conorh wrote: post #100
smackingly wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm biased because I'm a no-name physician at a community hospital, but the "best doctors" in my eyes are the ones with the best outcomes, lowest utilization, highest efficiency and highest patient satisfaction. These measures don't correlate well with the physician's credentials. I learned this in residency, which I did just down the street from a "top" university hospital. We out-performed that place on every…

> "These measures don't correlate well with the physician's credentials." This. I think I've even posted about this here before. This has been my wife's experience too (surgeon). She trained with highly regarded academic surgeons that set the treatment recommendations and standards for her field. Then during her job search she went to a center with, well, surgeons not at all academic and she had a life changing momen…

I don't have the original source handy, but I recall a study showing a high correlation between hand dexterity and surgical outcomes.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#207

Post by plafl »

mathattack wrote: post #167

Consider the nation’s most prestigious award for scientifically gifted high school students, the Westinghouse Science Talent Search, called the Super Bowl of science by one American president. From its inception in 1942 until 1994, the search recognized more than 2000 precocious teenagers as finalists. But just 1 percent ended up making the National Academy of Sciences, and just eight have won Nobel Prizes. 8 out of…

Yes, but I'm sure they are no Einsteins, which is of course the minimum we expect.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#208

Post by inimino »

houst0n_ wrote: post #152
inimino wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making a false dichotomy. Yes, you are personally responsible for your own circumstances and society isn't going to take care of you if you don't work. However, it's also incredibly shitty that society let you down enough at 15 to stay "high and drunk" for several years, which, for most kids, doesn't turn out well. There's enough blame to go around. Taking personal responsibility and blaming the system aren't…

Well; I think I would actually be considerably worse off if I had behaved myself, made it through high school and gone to university than I am currently; I know it seems counterintuitive but my point was just that it makes no difference how things go for you in "the system" as my experience is that those who seem to have been let down by it and still work at our level are better than those who went through the tradit…

It's true that many seem to make it regardless, and the negative things we go through often make us stronger (when they don't kill us).

I wouldn't change anything in my own life. I also wouldn't wish some of the experiences I've had on anyone else. I don't think those statements are contradictory.

The Spartan children that reached adulthood may have been tougher than the kids we raise today, but that is not an argument in favor of the Spartan system.

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#209

Post by arethuza »

rdlecler1 wrote: post #206
conorh wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "These measures don't correlate well with the physician's credentials." This. I think I've even posted about this here before. This has been my wife's experience too (surgeon). She trained with highly regarded academic surgeons that set the treatment recommendations and standards for her field. Then during her job search she went to a center with, well, surgeons not at all academic and she had a life changing momen…

I don't have the original source handy, but I recall a study showing a high correlation between hand dexterity and surgical outcomes.

I was pleasantly surprised to find that applications by 17/18 year olds to medical school here in the UK require that you demonstrate manual dexterity - one person sending in a video of them plaiting their hair which apparently went down well!

[NB This is in addition to the very high academic standards that are required for places at medical school].

Re: How to Raise a Creative Child – Step One: Back Off (2016)

#210

Post by arethuza »

smackingly wrote: post #78
replicatorblog wrote: post #63

In adulthood, many prodigies become experts in their fields and leaders in their organizations. Yet only a fraction of gifted children eventually become revolutionary adult creators. My daughter is being treated for Leukemia by some amazing doctors at Boston Children's Hospital. To my knowledge, none of the health care professionals at this world-class institution have won Nobel Prizes in medicine. All the same, for…

Maybe I'm biased because I'm a no-name physician at a community hospital, but the "best doctors" in my eyes are the ones with the best outcomes, lowest utilization, highest efficiency and highest patient satisfaction. These measures don't correlate well with the physician's credentials. I learned this in residency, which I did just down the street from a "top" university hospital. We out-performed that place on every…

Your observation reminds me of the original negative definition of the term "meritocracy" which focused on "merit" as being something not terribly strongly linked to actual measurable performance in a field.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jun/29/comment

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