How many jobs really require college? • Hacker News Board

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#51

Post by noonespecial » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:06 PM UTC

pen2l wrote: post #7

I think the author of this post is making the same mistake that a lot of other people (particularly smart folks) make whenever they are thinking about the ills of modern education system and what can be done to improve it. Like Peter Thiel and others, I don't think they understand how and why students are failing in classrooms today. Take for example the author's suggestions on how school systems can be improved: Cre…

>You're giving too much credit to students, they don't know what is best for them. This $100k will be exploited in some way by profit-seeking companies before you have a second to glance back at the money.

Like the near limitless non-dischargeable loans those same students are able to take right now? At least after it was taken by those same bad actors that are taking it right now, they wouldn't have to spend the rest of their lives "paying it back".

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#52

Post by dghf » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #36

The author risks to make mistakes related to the Dunning-Kruger effect [1]. Quote: > The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is. Psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive incapacity, on the part of those with low ability, to recognize the…

Could you expand on why you think this?

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#53

Post by bufordtwain » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

I agree with the author's conclusions that college is mostly an expensive waste of time and money. Job training can and should be done in a more cost-effective way with paid apprenticeships. Universities should focus on pushing the boundaries of knowledge (research) not job training.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#54

Post by analog31 » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:10 PM UTC

joefourier wrote: post #29

pen2l wrote: post #7

I think the author of this post is making the same mistake that a lot of other people (particularly smart folks) make whenever they are thinking about the ills of modern education system and what can be done to improve it. Like Peter Thiel and others, I don't think they understand how and why students are failing in classrooms today. Take for example the author's suggestions on how school systems can be improved: Cre…

Perhaps the reason many students require the imposition of an authority is because the educational system does not encourage the development of self-learning skills? From the first year of elementary school onward, students are explicitly told what to learn and when to learn it; even homework assignments are generally just the completion of predetermined exercises. It should come as no surprise that many will then fa…

Oddly enough (and anecdotally of course), I actually needed the classroom environment to learn some subjects, but not others. So it can't be that my brain is locked into a particular mode of learning.

I learned computer programming and electronics, completely on my own, except for one introductory course in each subject.

On the other hand, it would have been hard for me to learn math and physics on my own, and those subjects became my college majors.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#55

Post by overgard » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:10 PM UTC

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #45

This person has a bunch of essays but he comes across as an sad person who doesn't believe in civil rights for women. In an eassy on his website [1], he says "Men have natural abilities and disposition towards leadership. To deny this, to mandate equality of results, to push women into masculine roles, to domesticate and feminize men, only results in misery for both men and women. Universal suffrage elections are vir…

This is like the definition of an ad-hominem attack. Your argument is basically "he believes some unpopular things so all his ideas should be discredited." I dont know this guy and I doubt I think the way he thinks, but the essay is the essay -- it should stand or fall on its own merits.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#56

Post by sremani » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

kazagistar wrote: post #18

pen2l wrote: post #7

I think the author of this post is making the same mistake that a lot of other people (particularly smart folks) make whenever they are thinking about the ills of modern education system and what can be done to improve it. Like Peter Thiel and others, I don't think they understand how and why students are failing in classrooms today. Take for example the author's suggestions on how school systems can be improved: Cre…

Aren't apprenticeship contracts functionally slavery? You think free money will be abused, but this won't be?

Is apprenticeship where you do not get into debt but not remunerated for you work any worse form slavery than the 4-year degree that leaves the student with 100K debt, which the student has to service the next decade or so of his life?

Not only you are cheapening "slavery" as a word, but mis-framing the issue.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#57

Post by branchless » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:13 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #43

jobu wrote: post #30

College has become little more than an aptitude test for many jobs. If you're willing to grind through the years of studying and financial hardship to get a degree, then you'll probably be able to handle the job.

More importantly, you'll probably not have the financial resources to walk away from the job.

I may be putting words in your mouth but I think you are saying that non-graduates who are not soaked in debt have more choices, and if so I'd agree.

Employers want in order of preference:

* h1-b - work late or life as you know it ends

* big mortgage with family - work late or I ruin your family's life

* big university debt - work late or I ruin your life

Debt is a tool of control.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#58

Post by alexmingoia » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:14 PM UTC

besogno wrote: post #14

The solution is to be long in anti-fragile assets such as bitcoins and gold. If approximately everybody else is getting it wrong about degrees, the economy and the value of its fragile assets, especially paper money, will shrink systematically, while my assets will keep gaining value. In that sense, it is better to encourage most other people to get it wrong. Hence, they should get MORE useless degrees and saddle the…

How do you think student loans will "sink the boat completely"? They aren't traded, the money is mainly owed to public institions and banks, and it isn't the biggest piece of the debt pie. I'm even more confused how you think gold and bitcoin are hedges against a crash in the dollar. Historically, real gold returns have been worse during higher inflation. And during previous currency devaluations, holding commodities only worked out if you held the right ones. Oil has done far better than gold depending on which time period. Foreign currency can do just as well and is easier to trade than gold. To properly hedge the dollar you need to hold more then just bitcoin and gold, you would need silver, oil, and a basket of currencies as well.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#59

Post by dhimes » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:14 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #21

Grustaf wrote: post #9

Very few. I think it's much more a matter of job culture and a bit of red queen (useless arms race) competition that has brought on this situation. Probably with a sprinkling of politicians wanting to be able to say that "in my country 50% of high school students go on to university" when they hob nob at international conferences. In almost all white collar jobs the apprenticeship model would work just fine, but that…

>the most elite companies in the valley have discovered correctly that remote work doesn't work That's extraordinarily presumptive. Is IBM and a handful of others gods of all things HR? Why? There's conflicting data on both sides of the table, IBM just went with one choice over another. Recently, by the way, so we don't even know it's going to work. Furthermore, there's a strong argument that the move was an easy way…

Good point. Didn't Yahoo abandon remote work as soon as Mayer took over?

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#60

Post by bogomipz » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:14 PM UTC

pen2l wrote: post #7

I think the author of this post is making the same mistake that a lot of other people (particularly smart folks) make whenever they are thinking about the ills of modern education system and what can be done to improve it. Like Peter Thiel and others, I don't think they understand how and why students are failing in classrooms today. Take for example the author's suggestions on how school systems can be improved: Cre…

>"The most elite companies in the valley have correctly found out that remote doesn't work (in most cases)... and yet we're going to do remote with our students?"

I'm curious do you have a citation for this? Have those "elite companies" - Google, FB, etc ever actually embraced a remote work force? My impression was they were always on-site shops. But maybe someone here knows more?