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Saturn moon 'able to support life'

bbc.com

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Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#121

Post by dmichulke »

nojvek wrote: post #103
ageofwant wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there were any high-intelligence species before they must have exited in a time predating current coal and oil formation, or were not technologically capable, or found some other way of harvesting energy. The fact that we found massive amounts of planet-killing coal and immediately started exploiting it with abandon means that that did not happen before, ergo no technologically capable species on this planet for a…

I absolutely believe that any intelligent species that has enough intelligence to become interstellar will heavily invest in camouflage and become a lurker. Only reacting when something threatens its survival. The universe is like a jungle full of scary things, the only wise move is to watch out, be invisible and not make a lot of noise.

Aren't Twitter, FB and selfies a sign of the opposite happening at the micro level?

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#122

Post by gonvaled »

Sharlin wrote: post #115
ende wrote: post #105

ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS - EXCEPT EUROPA. ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE. USE THEM TOGETHER. USE THEM IN PEACE.

A good way to distinguish those who have read 2010-the-book from those who have seen 2010-the-movie...

Could you ellaborate? That's in the movie, what is in the book?

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#123

Post by JetSetWilly »

milquetoastaf wrote: post #38
ars wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's hard to say which species was first to become intelligent, but I'm pretty sure humans weren't the first. And yet, somehow Humans are in a completely different category than all other life. It's not just a matter a degree ("more" intelligent), it's a completely different category. So that means your definition of intelligent is flawed because it is unable to capture that distinction. Perhaps you need a new word…

>And yet, somehow Humans are in a completely different category than all other life. Lol no we are not. We share 98 percent of our DNA with various simians. We share 97 percent of our DNA with mice. Are we the only species to communicate? No. Are we the only species to communicate symbolically ? No. Great Apes use hand gestures. Are we the only species to recognize themselves? No. Plenty of animals do. In fact, even…

We share 50% of our DNA with a banana. That doesn't mean that a banana has all these incredible human characteristics. Stats about "percentage of DNA shared" are meaningless. A very small change in DNA can produce very large changes in the organism - ones fundamental to its nature.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#124

Post by Pyxl101 »

hyperpallium wrote: post #117
Swizec wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, birds are dinosaurs. Avian theropods to be precise. So maybe dinosaurs are still working towards their limit. We know that their brains produce more pound per pound intelligence than mammalian brains. It's like they're more efficient. But maybe something about that efficiency is Good Enough so they don't progress further. Although watching my parrot at home is quite something. He's definitely on par with a youn…

Spiders also produce more pound per pound intelligence. They are solitary. What if they became social? Brain-body ratio is provocative, but not the whole story. Seeing galahs (Australian corvid https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Galah ) socialize in trees in monkey troop-like fashion, dextrous in tooth and claw, makes me believe they are on the way. Though maybe raccons are next. > efficiency is Good Enough I was thinking th…

Here's a crazy idea:

What if we picked a domesticated animal such as a pig or dog, and began to breed the species for intelligence? Or any other suitable animal. Only intelligence (and general health), over an extended period.

It's believed that all of the modern dog breeds came about in the last hundred or so years. Modern domesticated dogs are definitely intelligent, especially socially intelligent. They understand words, they look you in the eye to get your attention, they understand their name, they seem to have simple emotions. How fast would they evolve if directed scientifically by humans?

... and at what point would we have to stop, because they're approaching human intelligence, making the program unethical?

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#125

Post by sundvor »

nojvek wrote: post #103
ageofwant wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there were any high-intelligence species before they must have exited in a time predating current coal and oil formation, or were not technologically capable, or found some other way of harvesting energy. The fact that we found massive amounts of planet-killing coal and immediately started exploiting it with abandon means that that did not happen before, ergo no technologically capable species on this planet for a…

I absolutely believe that any intelligent species that has enough intelligence to become interstellar will heavily invest in camouflage and become a lurker. Only reacting when something threatens its survival. The universe is like a jungle full of scary things, the only wise move is to watch out, be invisible and not make a lot of noise.

Good thing we're keeping so quiet then... :P /s

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#126

Post by Flow »

Houshalter wrote: post #75
nostrademons wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kinda curious if there's any evidence that would support or rule out intelligent life having existed on earth before. I mean, if humanity goes extinct and it's another 65 million years before another intelligent species evolves, what evidence would they have of our existence? All our buildings would've long since crumbled into dust or been crushed by plate tectonics. Metal will corrode and rust away after a few t…

I've read an interesting theory about this before but I can't remember the source. If there was intelligent life on Antarctica, it would be impossible for us to detect it today. Antarctica was warmer once and could have supported much more life. It's plausible any life that evolved there would be restricted to that continent. Humans evolved in warm climates and could adapt to cold climates by building shelters and we…

Have you seen the subbreddit for "Antarctic Anomalies"? https://www.reddit.com/r/AntarcticAnomalies/

I find stories and myths around Antarctica fascinating. It's one of the last places on Earth humans haven't turned every rock.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#127

Post by kpil »

milquetoastaf wrote: post #60
scythe wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My answer to this is simple: we have Turing machines. Somehow, our communications are Turing-complete, whereas other species's aren't. (I make no assumption as to why we have Turing machines, but note that implementing one usually requires some work)

Your answer is as simple as it is unsatisfactory and arbitrary. Humans have turing machines, sure. But we have yet to truly translate an animal language (though we do know they exist) so your point is rather moot. My point isn't that humans aren't amazing, it's that we perhaps think too highly of ourselves in relation to our incredible relatives.

I don't think you can 'translate' animal languages.

There is nothing to translate, basically.

We can get a good grip of the meaning of their sounds though, if we spend some time listening, but there is no deeper meaning hidden that we can not access.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#128

Post by Swizec »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #124
hyperpallium wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spiders also produce more pound per pound intelligence. They are solitary. What if they became social? Brain-body ratio is provocative, but not the whole story. Seeing galahs (Australian corvid https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Galah ) socialize in trees in monkey troop-like fashion, dextrous in tooth and claw, makes me believe they are on the way. Though maybe raccons are next. > efficiency is Good Enough I was thinking th…

Here's a crazy idea: What if we picked a domesticated animal such as a pig or dog, and began to breed the species for intelligence? Or any other suitable animal. Only intelligence (and general health), over an extended period. It's believed that all of the modern dog breeds came about in the last hundred or so years. Modern domesticated dogs are definitely intelligent, especially socially intelligent. They understand…

> Modern domesticated dogs are definitely intelligent, especially socially intelligent. They understand words, they look you in the eye to get your attention, they understand their name, they seem to have simple emotions. How fast would they evolve if directed scientifically by humans?

The crazy thing about birds, parrots especially, is that they do all that without humans directing it.

I have a bird at home. The biggest difference I've noticed between having a bird and having a dog or a cat is that birds have moods. Dog/cat emotions always seem to directly correspond to what is happening right now.

Bird emotions seem to correspond to whatever has been happening for a while. Like, if you upset the bird in the morning, he acts towards you with resentment 12 hours later when you come home. It's hard to explain, but acting the same way towards my bird definitely produces different results based on his mood.

And he's very adept at getting attention and asking for help. For example, he's used to drinking water from human cups. If he's thirsty and there are no cups around, he's able to communicate that he needs me to go fetch a cup and fill it with water.

When he needs help with getting some food item, he's able to get my attention, then fly away to where he's having trouble, and signal that he needs help. He's even figured out, from observation, how to open some of the drawers in our apartment so that he can get treats.

Currently he's figuring out how to open cage doors. Luckily his main appendage is the beak so while he can open the cage physically, he can't hold the door open while he gets out. So it slams shut (by gravity) when he tries to walk through the opening. Fingers crossed he doesn't figure it out :D

It's really quite fascinating to observe.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#129

Post by mcbits »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #65
milquetoastaf wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Animals transform their environments all the time, deliberately (I don't get why people act as if animals don't do deliberate things?). What of the great honey fungus in the Blue Mountains of Oregon, a living organism whose size is measured in miles - it deliberately transformed its environment in a way we, the species Aristotle put at the top, can barely even comprehend. The difference is in degree, not of kind.

> The difference is in degree, not of kind Everything is a difference of degree. At a certain point, a difference of degree becomes a difference of kind. There is a difference of kind between a fungus altering its environment through enzymes it produces from its genetic programming and people inventing steam engines.

I think written language is our primary difference. Prehistoric wild humans had spoken language for hundreds of thousands of years, but we didn't have the explosion of "intelligence" until the advent of written language ~5,000 years ago.

Or in more general terms, we have the ability to use our environment as a durable supplemental memory. This is what I would look for in assessing whether another species has the potential for human-like intelligence.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#130

Post by otempomores »

nzonbi wrote: post #4

If life is there, completely disconnected from earth life, it would be dramatic. That would mean that our solar system, has life on at least two, out of nine planets. That would seem to indicate that life is a fairly common things on planets. It would allow to adjust the drake equation, to easily predict millions of planets with life. And that would mean a high probability of many advanced, intelligent civilizations…

A dark forrest teaming with live
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