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Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

drupalconfessions.org

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Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#281

Post by Pxtl »

soundwave106 wrote: post #257
Pxtl wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... ouch. That really would've been nice to see in the letter. Having a pervy philosophy during kinky sex with consenting adults is a very different thing from believing women are inherently inferior.

Yeah, until I read the comments, the context of that letter was not clear to me at all, as BDSM was only referred to in passing. I only have a vague familiarity with the Gorean subculture. The modern subculture seems largely to be an extension of BDSM oriented role-play. The main negative I've heard is that Goreans sometimes take themselves way too seriously, ala a deep Star Wars or Star Trek nerd. I don't think I've…

Wait, Gorean as in the Gor books? Ohhhhh.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#282

Post by dorfsmay »

marbletiles wrote: post #180
dorfsmay wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, the message was "Mozilla is about promoting trendy idea", rather than openness. If we cannot support and debate "wrong" ideas, then we're not very open in my opinion.

Saying that homosexuals are equal to heterosexuals is not a "trendy idea", it's basic equality. I'm not sure why you think "employment as CEO" is the metric for whether "we" "support and debate [inequality] as an idea"

> Saying that homosexuals are equal to heterosexuals is not a "trendy idea", it's basic equality.

Equality of what?

Marriage is not based in physics or biology. It's a made up concept, actually concepts, plural. There are countries where it means one man + a limited number of women, there are countries where it means one man + as many women as he can afford (and can afford taking care of all the kids), there are countries where it means one man + one woman, and now there are countries where it means 2 adult homo sapiens regardless of sex. There are countries where it can only be between adults, there are countries where legal children can become a legal adults by getting married. etc...

Shouldn't equality include polyamorists? Why isn't it? What about minors who have the legal right to have sex, can they get married? Actually, what about kids who are legally entitled to own stuff, forget about sex? etc.... As far as I am concerned, marriage is just a legal contract that regulates what is owned by the different parties, and as such, none of the setup described here should be excluded. It does get a little bit more complicated when it comes to succession of active assets, for example polyamorists could daisy chain over time and earn retirements for somebody who was part of that chain and died hundred years ago, so there would be some tweaks to be done there, but that shouldn't be a blocker.

Now do you still think "gay marriage" (as opposed to other forms) wasn't just a trendy idea? Are you ok with polyamorist marriages? If not, even though that this is your personal opinion, should you be pushed out of your job because of it?

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#283

Post by striking »

Pxtl wrote: post #273
striking wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My God. Did you honestly think it was the latter? Without even considering the less malicious of the two first?

"Brilliant Geek posts mysogyny on his spare time" happens enough that I took it at face value. I mean, after Scott Adams and Dave Sim, it wouldn't be shocking to learn that a geek I respected had views that disgusted me.

I guess I can understand that perspective to some degree, but you made a lot of assertions in this thread that were ultimately unfounded.

Do you think that's fair to Larry?

I don't want to give you a hard time, I just wish people were more careful about this kind of thing.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#284

Post by abeyer »

Pxtl wrote: post #244
M_Grey wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So often you get stories in which a certain type of person cries, "Thought Police!" as a way to deflect from the core issues, but... this really is an example of that. As you say, the thoughts you have and express on your own time , which in no way change your professionalism, are your thoughts, period. I can't even imagine the life I would have led, the friends and colleagues I would never have had if "What you thin…

Let's reductio ad absurdum: what if one of your friends was a literal nazi. Never gassed any Jews, but thought it was a good idea. Wouldbe okay with that?

There are big differences between:

1. Genocide and consenting adults choosing how they want to interact with one another.

2. Being friends with someone and being able to interact with them professionally.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#285

Post by mnglkhn2 »

redsummer wrote: post #179
mnglkhn2 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a social construct to try and keep everyone at peace. The alternative would be a society with fault lines along racial and religious beliefs. And this would most likely lead to conflict. So, if you don't want conflict, then you need to integrate in some ways. You don't want to have identities develop and take hold. At that point it gets complicated. For instance, in Brazil, once you know you are a person confin…

In Brazil, American ideas of affirmative action have been imported. This leads to unsavoury situations where nose width and skull shape are being measured to determine who gets a job. http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/05/brazils-new-problem-with...

This actually proves that once the social cohesion has disappeared and that the fault lines have actually enlarged then these methods are just the tip of the conflict.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#286

Post by Frondo »

andoon wrote: post #30
julie1 wrote: post #11

It convinces me Code Of Conduct are basically sticks that will not harm you when you are on the right side of them. Do communities needs sticks to be driven one sided way like cows? At this point it feels like they kind of defy their reason to be and are pretty misused.

My experience says that codes of conduct are written with the express desire of keeping all open source communities left-leaning. I've talked to many people about the matter and some of them say that open source is supposed to be left-leaning, and that those are its principles. That ignores that right-leaning users should also be able to benefit from open source values (privacy, for example) and contribute code, and…

Well, what would a right-leaning code of conduct look like right now? "The Drupal project rejects the rights of gay people to marry each other"? "The Drupal project declares that men and women are better suited to different roles, and men will code and women will do graphic design"?

What are you proposing for a not-left-leaning code of conduct, either neutral or right-leaning?

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#287

Post by simias »

rsyring wrote: post #278
simias wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying that you should hide yourself for being christian. I wouldn't have any problem working with somebody having religious themed personal items on their desk. That's your private space as far as I'm concerned. I've worked with a catholic guy who told me he prostested the same-sex marriage law in france. I completely disagree with his position but we just stopped the discussion at this point and we kept wor…

> or even wear anti-abortion shirts or stuff like that then yeah, I might ask you to tone it down. If someone wore a t-shirt in support of the LGBTQ+ life style, would you ask them to "tone it down"?

Maybe? What would it look like?

In general I find that it's harder to be offensive when you position yourself for something rather than against something. On paper an anti-religious shirt sounds more offensive than a pro-LGBTQ+ one, for instance. Both sound hardly appropriate for work though.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#288

Post by Anselmo321 »

Bartweiss wrote: post #181
manarth wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marvel Comics recently fired an illustrator for hiding Islamist, anti-Semitic and anti-Christian references in his art. It wasn't exactly his art in which the references were hidden - it was Marvel's art . He hid the references in comic panels, commissioned by Marvel and designed specifically for publication in a Marvel comic.

The bait-and-switch here is pretty bad, yeah. This was content hidden in his professional work that he was dismissed over. It's not comparable. If someone were putting inflammatory political content in the Drupal source, it'd be an unambiguous CoC violation and I think they'd have basically no defenders.

How about Drupalgeddon? Not covered by the CoC.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#289

Post by Pxtl »

M_Grey wrote: post #249
Pxtl wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's reductio ad absurdum: what if one of your friends was a literal nazi. Never gassed any Jews, but thought it was a good idea. Wouldbe okay with that?

No, but I don't see that as being remotely similar to someone who roleplays a bigot during sex. If I had a friend who liked to dress up like Himmler and get roundly spanked, I'm not going to judge him for it. If I have a friend who calmly remarks that maybe "Hitler really did nothing wrong," I'm going to be furious and horrified. Lets really try not to judge people for their kinks, because they tend to be strange, in…

Again, when this letter was first posted, there was no mention of this being a sex thing. As far as well all knew, the matter was about actual misogyny, not kink.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#290

Post by Pxtl »

striking wrote: post #283
Pxtl wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Brilliant Geek posts mysogyny on his spare time" happens enough that I took it at face value. I mean, after Scott Adams and Dave Sim, it wouldn't be shocking to learn that a geek I respected had views that disgusted me.

I guess I can understand that perspective to some degree, but you made a lot of assertions in this thread that were ultimately unfounded. Do you think that's fair to Larry? I don't want to give you a hard time, I just wish people were more careful about this kind of thing.

I'm just going by the letter, and mostly on the issue of "how do we handle misogyny in our orgs" not about Larry himself. Unfortunately HN will no longer let me edit my first posts to point out "it was a sex thing".
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