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Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

drupalconfessions.org

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Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#261

Post by crawfordcomeaux »

jolux wrote: post #137
crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue allowing some intolerance is required because no system is 100% anything. Your comment shows the exact sort of thinking the people you're responding to are going off on. The issue is people are trying to implement nonviolent communication principles in communities without learning how to process the world through the lens of nonviolent communication. And others are using the natural misunderstandings as evi…

Karl Popper wrote on this subject and I've yet to find a suitable rebuttal. The intolerant cannot be tolerated because doing so would lead to the elimination of tolerance. His justification is whether the intolerant are willing to discuss things rationally or whether they will steamroll you without any concern for intellectual integrity.

This is a black and white interpretation. Here's your refutation:

When we try to outlaw people being themselves, we overlook their needs. That isn't a productive framework and will ultimately compile into systemic issues over time. Tolerating intolerance says nothing about timberline, types of intolerance, scale, etc. It lacks make and is therefore a problematic principle for governing human behavior.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#262

Post by chickenfries »

jacquesm wrote: post #212
chickenfries wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Artists in many industries do tons of peer review, actually.

But not in the sense that programmers do it. Of course there is the 'hackers and painters' essay by PG but I don't see it that way. Artists are a lot freer in their expressions than programmers ever will be, syntax, coding styles, those pesky specifications and so on.

Sure, I agree that painting is not programming. But in the context of professional artists, many of them are CONSTANTLY being reviewed by peers and stakeholders.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#263

Post by exclusiv »

ploxiln wrote: post #142
Pxtl wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leftist beliefs aren't "half the population is my lesser ". Seriously, would you make excuses like this for a pro-ISIS muslim? A white nationalist? A violent anarchist? An antisemitic holocaust denier? Believing that one person is less human than the other by the attributes of their birth is not a philosophical discussion like capitalism vs communism. If witches are actually doing damage , then by all means hunt them…

That's the funny thing - leftist beliefs are in fact "half the population is my lesser ". The half that are not leftist are "bad hateful people", and you hate them and do not tolerate them. I'm no republican, but I end up being more annoyed by liberals for such blatant doublethink, for being unable to recognize their own actions.

Leftists do regularly paint those with different beliefs as evil just because they have a different point of view. They also have a streak of disdain toward minorities where they start with an assumption that they can't do certain things and only the lefties can save them with overreaching policies.

So while I agree with you - your second statement "annoyed by liberals" should probably be changed to "annoyed by leftists". Liberals and leftists couldn't be more different but are often used interchangeably. Leftists will do what we are talking about. Liberals don't.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#264

Post by gech »

falcolas wrote: post #59
humanrebar wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without getting into controversial labels, it's not clear to me who did what to whom and what the people are petitioning for. I seemed to me that (all allegedly) someone was outed as into BDSM and was somehow treated unfairly. I think that certainly falls into the domain of liberal sexual identity politics.

The problem is that Larry's brand of BDSM (Gor) is not the "right" form of BDSM, as supported by "liberal sexual identity politics". As such, he was outed, smeared, and asked to leave the Drupal community.

Was this outed through a witchhunt? Who conducted the witchhunt?

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#265

Post by etchalon »

lgleason wrote: post #242
etchalon wrote: post #235

While, in reading this thread, I understand how people might take offense to someone being excluded based on a privately-held belief, especially one which has not manifested into an actual issue of conduct. But I'm not sure I mind when different standards are applied to any given community's "leaders" vs. its participants. Leaders ultimately represent what a community believes it should stand for. We have, perhaps un…

It's one thing if we are talking about their actions that are part of being a community leader. IE: if a Drupal leader showed porn during a talk at a Drupal conference. It's another to say that their personal actions outside of this official role represent the community. This is why people say that their Twitter views do not represent their employer etc. because there can and should be a separation between the two.

My point was that "leaders" can not compartmentalize the same way a participant, employee or guest can. Leadership roles are generally, in our society, held to higher standards.

I'm also keeping in mind that had this person held views not that women are inherently inferior to men, but that blacks were inherently inferior to whites, there'd be absolutely no discussion about whether they should be removed.

You simply cannot hold that type of view and have any credible moral claim to a leadership role, even if your actions as a leader are spotless.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#266

Post by YPCrumble »

erpellan wrote: post #189

Code of Conduct. Conduct. CONDUCT! Not: code of thought, beliefs, sexuality, politics, religion.... All the discussions of philosophy and belief systems in this thread are missing the point. It DOES NOT MATTER how you feel about someone else's beliefs. It is not relevant. How they CONDUCT themselves in the community is the only thing that matters.

If that were the case it would be called a "Code of Conduct In the [Drupal] Community". Many people assume they should consider any conduct that they don't like in applying a "Code of Conduct".

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#267

Post by maxlybbert »

btschaegg wrote: post #215
maxlybbert wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C.S. Lewis: "One man said to me, 'Three hundred years ago people in England were putting witches to death. Was that what you call the Rule of Human Nature or Right Conduct?' But surely the reason we do not execute witches is that we do not believe there are such things. If we did -- if we really thought that there were people going about who had sold themselves to the devil and received supernatural powers from him i…

Very interesting quote. That statement underlines an important point: Witch hunts are commited by people who are convinced that their reaction is justified. Then, it was because that evil witch had cursed your cousin, now it is perhaps because someone made a joke you didn't get[1]. And obviously, no single person holding the digital pitchforks would ever think of themselves doing the same thing as a superstitious pea…

In the US, these kinds of reactions are often called "moral panics" (according to Wikipedia, the term has a slightly different meaning in Britain). It's much easier to identify them when you aren't involved. I don't know any way to avoid them, but I believe a good first step is to acknowledge that you may not be immune to overreaction, even if you are open minded and hold all the correct political positions.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#268

Post by speeder »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #85

> illegally obtaining information from members-only websites (by violating their terms of use) IANAL, but since when have arbitrary website terms and conditions been automatically enforced by criminal law?

Aaron Swartz case...

And a bulling case I forgot the name (they used the same law that was used in Aaron Swartz to argue that the bullying people were criminals because they broke MySpace TOS).

And a bunch of other cases... In US breaking TOS is literally a crime if you keep using the site (it is akin to virtual trespassing).

I think such law is bullshit... but it does exist. (CFAA I think is the law name)

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#269

Post by stillhere »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #162
stillhere wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who decides what is intolerant? Free speech becomes more limited over time as the definition changes to anything which hurts someones feelings for example. Or, in this case, ascribes to BDSM and fantasy lifestyle. You are the thought police.

> You are the thought police. Not at all. Anyone is totally free to believe whatever they like, I'm not suggesting making certain beliefs illegal. What I'm saying is that, if i run an open-source project, i should be free to work with whoever i want, based on their beliefs. Not based on the person they were when they born, but the person they have chosen to be. If that person happens to be a white-supremacist or advo…

So anyone is free to believe whatever they like but if they'd like to join your organization they better shut up about it if they don't think the way you do? In effect you are policing thought.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#270

Post by rhizome »

lucideer wrote: post #110

A lot of people are taking either stance: that a person's beliefs squarely should or should not affect their involvement in the project. However - the third stance is that one needs to assess the material effect their beliefs may have on their day-to-day involvement in that project. In an industry with serious, systemic issues with gender balance, is it not reasonable to suggest a person promoting "Gorean philosophy"…

Aside from his private wedding speech thing, how was he "promoting Gorean philosophy" in the context of his Drupal work?
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