Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#231

Post by coldpie » Wed, Apr 12, 2017, 4:44 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #217

coldpie wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that I didn't answer your question directly. To be explicit, yes, I think wishing to impose your personal religious beliefs on your constituents should disqualify you from holding public office. However, when presented with two options that both fail that test, I will vote for the lesser of the two evils presented to me. I don't think that Mozilla was faced with that dichotomy, and the fact that Eich was…

> I think wishing to impose your personal religious beliefs on your constituents should disqualify you from holding public office. Should officials be cajoling or forcing people to "convert" (not every religion has conversion as such)? Nope. Can we divorce all laws from any metaphysical worldview? No. That's not possible. We presume certain things matter, like human lives, freedom of conscience, truth, the health of…

I don't agree with your premise, and this isn't the forum to debate that. But even if I did, given that even members of the same religion have disagreements about the morality of gay marriage, I don't think your argument is relevant to this specific situation.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#232

Post by thehardsphere » Wed, Apr 12, 2017, 4:45 PM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #197

thehardsphere wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was asked to leave the Drupal community by its community leader against the recommendations of its Code of Conduct board, to a large amount of backlash by pretty much everybody, including many of those evil social justice warriors. Umm, no. The "Code of Conduct board" said he didn't violate the Code of Conduct, but they escalated the issue to Dries because _something_ came up that they felt needed his interventi…

They decided, rather explicitly, that there was no code of conduct violation. I don't know what else to say. Also: your quotations around kink shaming imply that you don't believe this is a real thing. The fact that I have multiple friends who've lost their jobs because someone sent their bosses a set of pictures taken off of Fetlife suggests otherwise.

"No Code of Conduct violation" doesn't mean "nothing wrong happened." It could just as easily mean that the Code of Conduct is inadequate.

Also, I do believe kink shaming is a real thing. I don’t believe that Larry Garfield was kink shamed. I think Larry is making this about kink to distract from whatever it is really about.

I also know some feminists who find the idea of a white heterosexual male being capable of being kink shamed is definitionally impossible and thus something to find offensive, especially given the enormous privilege Larry Garfield has enjoyed up until now as one of the leading members of the Drupal community. Whether that is true or not is something I don’t actually know enough about to comment on, but it's enough to make me cautious about labelling what happened here as kink shaming.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#233

Post by makomk » Wed, Apr 12, 2017, 4:46 PM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #56

amiga-workbench wrote: post #4

I'm actually impressed, from the first few lines I was expecting another social justice fueled witch hunt, but instead we have the exact opposite here.

For the record, a large chunk of the social justice community are kinky (and, separately, a large chunk of the kink community agrees broadly with modern feminist views). Nobody I've spoken to within my subset of the social justice community wants somebody to be removed from the Drupal community based on how they go about their personal relationships and sexuality.

The social justice community has also pretty much always had completely different standards for members of the ingroup and outgroup. (To be honest, most communities probably do.) I mean, one of the really prominent (now ex-)members of the social justice gamedev community wrote a heartwrenching piece about what a terrible, abusive place it and its "compulsory BDSM sexuality" was for her, people handwrung over it a little, and a year later nothing had changed and everyone was gushing about how the latest game out the community showed that actually, non-BDSM relationships were the abusive, manipulative ones. They literally learned nothing, and no-one saw anything wrong with this. Meanwhile, every failure within the mainstream BDSM community is seen as an indictment of its evil misogynistic heterosexist buzzword bingo.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#234

Post by vertex-four » Wed, Apr 12, 2017, 4:46 PM UTC

rszrama wrote: post #219

vertex-four wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should at least consider that possibility That would require that someone provides some evidence that this had nothing to do with what the accused suggests it's about - as it is, all we have is a short jump from being harassed because Gor to being kicked out of the community. That sort of thing is, unfortunately, quite common - I have friends within the scene who've lost their jobs because someone sent a picture…

I believe Dries's words in his apology post were sincere, so I do submit that as evidence but understand you may find him untrustworthy. However, the willingness of people who practice BDSM who actually work for him to speak out on that post provides even more compelling evidence that Dries isn't known for discriminating on that basis: http://buytaert.net/comment/132641#comment-132641 If Preston and other BDSM practi…

Unfortunately some kinks are judged harsher than others. For example, if someone got sent a picture of their employee engaging in some flogging or even caning in the privacy of their bedroom, it's unlikely they'd care - but e.g. a branding ceremony? Needle or scalpel play? Presence at a high-protocol, strictly gendered event (e.g. male clothed, female nude)? Making a speech at a wedding between people in a relationship based on power exchange, that touches on the inequalities those people have chosen to make part of their relationship? All of those things bother some people a lot, potentially to the point of severing all ties that they legally could.

If he has harmed someone in the community or been put in a position to harm someone by his place in the community, you'd think Dries would be able to say that. If there's a police investigation or court case sufficiently far along that Dries thinks it's likely it happened, you'd think he'd be able to say that. But he's said absolutely nothing aside from his vague "because equality" statement.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#235

Post by etchalon » Wed, Apr 12, 2017, 4:47 PM UTC

While, in reading this thread, I understand how people might take offense to someone being excluded based on a privately-held belief, especially one which has not manifested into an actual issue of conduct.

But I'm not sure I mind when different standards are applied to any given community's "leaders" vs. its participants. Leaders ultimately represent what a community believes it should stand for. We have, perhaps unrealistically in some case, but justifiably always prosecuted leaders, in any context, for behavior, beliefs and statements that we would absolutely forgive/ignore for the "public".

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#236

Post by giaour » Wed, Apr 12, 2017, 4:49 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #92

Udo wrote: post #44

Expanding on one of the comments that might clear up what we're actually talking about (which wasn't made especially clear otherwise): >> "The Gorean philosophy promoted by Larry is based on the principle that women are evolutionarily predisposed to serve men and that the natural order is for men to dominate and lead." Even assuming this is Larry's philosophy, it is pretty much the same philosophy shared by many wome…

This is where professionalism is important. Firmly separating your personal life and your professional life. That said, there's a huge gap between a religion a person is imparted with as a child, and philosophy they chose as an adult and have jumped into with both feet. Many people come from backgrounds with bigoted ideas like that, but they don't colour their daily lives with it because they're not actively married…

> That said, there's a huge gap between a religion a person is imparted with as a child, and philosophy they chose as an adult and have jumped into with both feet.

That seems like a distinction without a difference. If someone converted to a religion as an adult, would you feel justified in using their religious beliefs to eject them from an open source project?

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#237

Post by atom-morgan » Wed, Apr 12, 2017, 4:49 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #153

tps5 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you get it. It doesn't matter what some guy posts on some message board (unless it's a threat, an incitement of violence, or something along those lines). It doesn't matter if he says he believes in "Gorean philosophy," whatever the hell that is. What matters are his actions. If he's treating women disrespectfully then, by all means, throw him out. But he's allowed to believe whatever the hell he wants,…

I do get it. That's why I started from the important of professionalism, of separating the professional from the personal. But I'm also pointing out the other side: that maybe, just maybe, this kind of thing crosses the line. If it was just his beliefs we wouldn't know about them in the first place. But obviously, we know about them, which means it's not just his beliefs it's his statements. If I went around on some…

> If I went around on some other private forum and said "all people who share attribute X with tps5 are sub-human and should be subservient to me" is that more or less okay?

If you didn't bring that into the workplace, yes. You can believe it and not act towards implementing it.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#238

Post by michaelsbradley » Wed, Apr 12, 2017, 4:52 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #229

michaelsbradley wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole keep-public-and-private-life-separate principle can itself be problematic. That is, it's not always clear what that even means. If it's the same as "never, ever do/say something offensive to current-day 'progressives'" , then we have a problem. Speaking as a Christian, I actively seek to more deeply integrate my beliefs into every aspect of my existence: how I do my work and fulfill my responsibilities, how…

I'm not saying that you should hide yourself for being christian. I wouldn't have any problem working with somebody having religious themed personal items on their desk. That's your private space as far as I'm concerned. I've worked with a catholic guy who told me he prostested the same-sex marriage law in france. I completely disagree with his position but we just stopped the discussion at this point and we kept wor…

> The key element is respect I think. I respect you, you respect me and everybody's a happy bunny.

You sound quite reasonable, and I think you're right. :-) Other folks I've encountered are... not so reasonable.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#239

Post by striking » Wed, Apr 12, 2017, 4:52 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #170

dsr_ wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK, a whole bunch of people here are missing the point: the Gorean stuff is primarily a consensual sexual fantasy, not a 24/7 philosophy. It doesn't say "this is the right way to live life for everyone", it says "we like this system for our personal lives and weekends and vacations". ISIS? Nazis? They want to destroy the world and make it over in their own image, not be left alone in quiet enjoyment of their kinks…

... ouch. That really would've been nice to see in the letter. Having a pervy philosophy during kinky sex with consenting adults is a very different thing from believing women are inherently inferior.

My God.

Did you honestly think it was the latter? Without even considering the less malicious of the two first?

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#240

Post by vertex-four » Wed, Apr 12, 2017, 4:52 PM UTC

thehardsphere wrote: post #232

vertex-four wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They decided, rather explicitly, that there was no code of conduct violation. I don't know what else to say. Also: your quotations around kink shaming imply that you don't believe this is a real thing. The fact that I have multiple friends who've lost their jobs because someone sent their bosses a set of pictures taken off of Fetlife suggests otherwise.

"No Code of Conduct violation" doesn't mean "nothing wrong happened." It could just as easily mean that the Code of Conduct is inadequate. Also, I do believe kink shaming is a real thing. I don’t believe that Larry Garfield was kink shamed. I think Larry is making this about kink to distract from whatever it is really about. I also know some feminists who find the idea of a white heterosexual male being capable of be…

> I also know some feminists who find the idea of a white heterosexual male being capable of being kink shamed is definitionally impossible and thus something to find offensive

Ehh, there's a lot who find kink shaming to be something fundamentally different from oppression of LGBTQIA+ people and racial minorities, but many fewer who'll state categorically that it doesn't exist or doesn't cause harm to individuals.