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Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

drupalconfessions.org

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Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#241

Post by Frondo »

ploxiln wrote: post #142
Pxtl wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leftist beliefs aren't "half the population is my lesser ". Seriously, would you make excuses like this for a pro-ISIS muslim? A white nationalist? A violent anarchist? An antisemitic holocaust denier? Believing that one person is less human than the other by the attributes of their birth is not a philosophical discussion like capitalism vs communism. If witches are actually doing damage , then by all means hunt them…

That's the funny thing - leftist beliefs are in fact "half the population is my lesser ". The half that are not leftist are "bad hateful people", and you hate them and do not tolerate them. I'm no republican, but I end up being more annoyed by liberals for such blatant doublethink, for being unable to recognize their own actions.

I've never seen any leftist claim that any group is inferior by birth; though it is, of course, easy to find leftists looking down on people for the ideas they hold and politics they practice. But having bad ideas doesn't seem to translate to "is my lesser" or is less human than me.

To put it another way, the leftists will acknowledge that anyone can grow out of stupid ideas (and indeed, there are hopeful stories of bigots changing their tune), while the things the right gets down on people for (being gay, whatever) are things built into the person.

So, I think this is an inaccurate characterization of the left. You're free to be annoyed by whatever annoys you, of course, but this one might merit rethinking.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#242

Post by lgleason »

etchalon wrote: post #235

While, in reading this thread, I understand how people might take offense to someone being excluded based on a privately-held belief, especially one which has not manifested into an actual issue of conduct. But I'm not sure I mind when different standards are applied to any given community's "leaders" vs. its participants. Leaders ultimately represent what a community believes it should stand for. We have, perhaps un…

It's one thing if we are talking about their actions that are part of being a community leader. IE: if a Drupal leader showed porn during a talk at a Drupal conference. It's another to say that their personal actions outside of this official role represent the community. This is why people say that their Twitter views do not represent their employer etc. because there can and should be a separation between the two.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#243

Post by atom-morgan »

lucideer wrote: post #110

A lot of people are taking either stance: that a person's beliefs squarely should or should not affect their involvement in the project. However - the third stance is that one needs to assess the material effect their beliefs may have on their day-to-day involvement in that project. In an industry with serious, systemic issues with gender balance, is it not reasonable to suggest a person promoting "Gorean philosophy"…

With that logic it would seem reasonable to assume someone of any religion might execute poor judgement. There's always something to disagree with in any religion.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#244

Post by Pxtl »

M_Grey wrote: post #228
tps5 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you get it. It doesn't matter what some guy posts on some message board (unless it's a threat, an incitement of violence, or something along those lines). It doesn't matter if he says he believes in "Gorean philosophy," whatever the hell that is. What matters are his actions. If he's treating women disrespectfully then, by all means, throw him out. But he's allowed to believe whatever the hell he wants,…

So often you get stories in which a certain type of person cries, "Thought Police!" as a way to deflect from the core issues, but... this really is an example of that. As you say, the thoughts you have and express on your own time , which in no way change your professionalism, are your thoughts, period. I can't even imagine the life I would have led, the friends and colleagues I would never have had if "What you thin…

Let's reductio ad absurdum: what if one of your friends was a literal nazi. Never gassed any Jews, but thought it was a good idea. Wouldbe okay with that?

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#246

Post by atom-morgan »

Pxtl wrote: post #114

You know how we always complain how the tech community is treated unfairly about women? How they think we politely ignore the gendered problems our industry faces? How we're not all sexist and we're genuinely trying hard to embrace and include female geeks and coders? This thread. This whole thread right here.

Mind elaborating?

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#247

Post by giaour »

Pxtl wrote: post #153
tps5 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you get it. It doesn't matter what some guy posts on some message board (unless it's a threat, an incitement of violence, or something along those lines). It doesn't matter if he says he believes in "Gorean philosophy," whatever the hell that is. What matters are his actions. If he's treating women disrespectfully then, by all means, throw him out. But he's allowed to believe whatever the hell he wants,…

I do get it. That's why I started from the important of professionalism, of separating the professional from the personal. But I'm also pointing out the other side: that maybe, just maybe, this kind of thing crosses the line. If it was just his beliefs we wouldn't know about them in the first place. But obviously, we know about them, which means it's not just his beliefs it's his statements. If I went around on some…

If you acted on that belief in a public or professional capacity, then that would not be OK. "Acted" need not be defined overly restrictively -- openly advocating for a specific policy or state of affairs, running for office on a specific platform, even openly declaring membership in an organization that seeks to enact your beliefs could all be construed as actions given the right circumstances.

If instead you were discussing your sexual preferences on a private forum, then I would owe you an apology for having invaded your privacy.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#248

Post by [deleted] »

Pxtl wrote: post #244
M_Grey wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So often you get stories in which a certain type of person cries, "Thought Police!" as a way to deflect from the core issues, but... this really is an example of that. As you say, the thoughts you have and express on your own time , which in no way change your professionalism, are your thoughts, period. I can't even imagine the life I would have led, the friends and colleagues I would never have had if "What you thin…

Let's reductio ad absurdum: what if one of your friends was a literal nazi. Never gassed any Jews, but thought it was a good idea. Wouldbe okay with that?

[deleted]

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#249

Post by M_Grey »

Pxtl wrote: post #244
M_Grey wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So often you get stories in which a certain type of person cries, "Thought Police!" as a way to deflect from the core issues, but... this really is an example of that. As you say, the thoughts you have and express on your own time , which in no way change your professionalism, are your thoughts, period. I can't even imagine the life I would have led, the friends and colleagues I would never have had if "What you thin…

Let's reductio ad absurdum: what if one of your friends was a literal nazi. Never gassed any Jews, but thought it was a good idea. Wouldbe okay with that?

No, but I don't see that as being remotely similar to someone who roleplays a bigot during sex. If I had a friend who liked to dress up like Himmler and get roundly spanked, I'm not going to judge him for it. If I have a friend who calmly remarks that maybe "Hitler really did nothing wrong," I'm going to be furious and horrified.

Lets really try not to judge people for their kinks, because they tend to be strange, inexplicable, and personal.

Re: Drupal Confessions – An Open Letter

#250

Post by fabrice_d »

lgleason wrote: post #209
fabrice_d wrote: post #196

Not taking sides, but I found this analysis by an experienced community manager interesting: https://subfictional.com/thoughts-on-recent-drupal-governanc... "it's complicated"

It's complicated if you are driving an agenda. Otherwise you can conduct things in the open. In my experience the secret tribunals enable bad behavior and bullies.

It's about respecting the privacy of people that could have been harassed by Larry (and Larry's own privacy). How is that an agenda?

I don't see a "secret tribunal" here, more a `behind closed doors` trial (https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%A0_huis_clos). Nothing wrong with that.

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