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Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

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Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#161

Post by 8note »

maxerickson wrote: post #134
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can draw a straight line from the 13th Amendment to the private prisons of today. After all, the southern states whose economy was ruined by the Civil War had to get cheap labor somehow, so they arrested all those former slaves for random bullshit like loitering, had them convicted by all-white juries, and sent them to work in chain gangs. Netflix produced a great documentary about all of this - 13th - and it's w…

Most prison labor occurs at publicly owned and operated institutions. Simply because private prisons hold a small portion of the people incarcerated at a state or federal level.

that's somewhat less interesting than a per capita measure

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#162

Post by scoobydoo123 »

jacquesm wrote: post #125
scoobydoo123 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That depends on the situation but is ultimately un-important It actually is very important because this is exactly what distinguishes between labour slavery and ordinary paid work. Economic rules is not something that one can decide whether it applies or not. It's like telling that mathematical axioms don't apply in prison - sure, you can make people believe that 2 + 2 = 5 but this is nothing more than just rejecti…

In ordinary paid work both sides have consideration and freedom. In this case they don't so you can't compare it to 'ordinary work', it isn't. That leaves 'forced labor' as the only other option if you feel that letting people starve to death is a viable alternative (as you did in your earlier comment). The rest of your comment is not applicable.

>if you feel that letting people starve to death is a viable alternative (as you did in your earlier comment)

isn't it how this works in principle for folks that are not imprisoned? (And no, I don't think this a viable alternative, although - nice job what you did here - well played).

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#163

Post by maxerickson »

8note wrote: post #161
maxerickson wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most prison labor occurs at publicly owned and operated institutions. Simply because private prisons hold a small portion of the people incarcerated at a state or federal level.

that's somewhat less interesting than a per capita measure

Feel free to figure it out.

My point was that the use of prison labor is not limited to private prisons.

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#164

Post by jacquesm »

mkelley82 wrote: post #157
jacquesm wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, given the fact that former inmates are just ordinary people again you'd think the likelihood of them attaining either job would be related to their skill level and aptitude. If you'd teach them javascript in prison their chances of landing a javascript front-end engineer would go up dramatically, if you only teach them how to rip up old computers then maybe they'll find a job in recycling at lower pay with a hi…

As a programmer with a felony (Possession of a controlled substance) I can tell you that by far the greatest hurdle is getting past a background check. I am in the process of finding a new job and I am currently awaiting a decision for the THIRD time on whether my felony will keep me from being hired. In the past month and a half I have been extended offers on two positions only to have them rescinded after they do t…

That's really ugly. Are you in the USA or Elsewhere?

There was a thread linked a while back that may be of some relevance to you, let me dig it up.

edit: here you go:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6750043

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#166

Post by 8note »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #71
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

only most of those "bad things" are things like non-violent drug offences and other such things. I'm not saying they are all good folks, but most of them are just folks that messed up a little bit, and have to pay for it for years. Once we get people in the system, it is likely they will be in and out of it their entire lives. And what is even worse, it doesn't have to be this way (We refuse to take more compassionat…

See this comment, which has sources refuting your claim that "most" are non-violent drug offences: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14095968

does it?

it makes two big assumptions that leaves it open:

1. only state prisons are considered 2. only people in prison for a year or more are considered

there's nothing in the comment showing that shorter term inmates are a smaller population, nor that they aren't mostly non violent offenders, nor that federal prisons aren't mostly non violent offenders.

In total, the comment just shows that there are violent and nonviolent felons in prison

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#167

Post by jacquesm »

maxerickson wrote: post #152
jacquesm wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

%age of the population that has left the education system and that classifies as functionally illiterate would be one way to do it. You're not going to get the answer with a written survey though. The United States does not report their rate but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States is when compared with http://world.bymap.org/LiteracyRates.html and various other sources not something to be happ…

By "measure", I meant a specific methodology that compares, say, the US and western Europe. Or just one country in western Europe. For example, if France had a study that broke results out similarly to https://nces.ed.gov/naal/kf_demographics.asp Your implication is that France would simply lack an equivalent to the "Below Basic" group. I doubt this.

Most countries in Western Europe do not have 'home schooling', which is one big differentiating factor here, and those that do in general do not have numbers worth measuring.

I'm sure France has an equivalent group, but I'm also sure that that group would be substantially smaller based on plenty of exposure to French citizens and American citizens.

France has one of the best education systems in Europe and if you've gone to school there it is almost un-thinkable that you would not have achieved at least basic reading and writing skills.

There are people that fall through the cracks of the education system, but even children of illegal immigrants are required to go to school (and it's free).

Marine Le Pen wants to change this by the way, that's double stupid because (1) the chances they will end up staying are fairly large and (2) if they can't read/write they will end up in crime in larger proportions than otherwise.

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#168

Post by jacquesm »

scoobydoo123 wrote: post #162
jacquesm wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In ordinary paid work both sides have consideration and freedom. In this case they don't so you can't compare it to 'ordinary work', it isn't. That leaves 'forced labor' as the only other option if you feel that letting people starve to death is a viable alternative (as you did in your earlier comment). The rest of your comment is not applicable.

>if you feel that letting people starve to death is a viable alternative (as you did in your earlier comment) isn't it how this works in principle for folks that are not imprisoned? (And no, I don't think this a viable alternative, although - nice job what you did here - well played).

> isn't it how this works in principle for folks that are not imprisoned?

No, it isn't that's when you go on welfare.

> (And no, I don't think this a viable alternative, although - nice job what you did here - well played).

I didn't 'play', you basically made a bunch of statements that are un-supportable.

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#169

Post by jsmthrowaway »

scoobydoo123 wrote: post #121
jacquesm wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inmates should be given a choice of working and making money so they can pay for their living or do nothing and starve to death - just like any other member of the society outside of prison. Their freedom to negotiate has been taken away, therefore they do not have any choices. > What you're talking about is really a disproportion between amount of work they make (and value they produce) and the total amount of pay…

> That depends on the situation but is ultimately un-important It actually is very important because this is exactly what distinguishes between labour slavery and ordinary paid work. Economic rules is not something that one can decide whether it applies or not. It's like telling that mathematical axioms don't apply in prison - sure, you can make people believe that 2 + 2 = 5 but this is nothing more than just rejecti…

> It actually is very important because this is exactly what distinguishes between labour slavery and ordinary paid work.

"Ordinary paid work" that pays less than a dollar an hour. And if you don't go you are put in solitary, instead of just being fired. That means you don't see any other people. Ever. If they really don't like you they can put you on the loaf, too. Look that up. And that "opportunity" for "ordinary paid work" only exists in prison: you also aren't handling jail, where the Thirteenth doesn't apply because the inmate has not yet been convicted. So now everybody in jail starves under your final solution, before they can be convicted by their peers, all in the name of economic purity.

I have to say, as a former inmate, watching ostensibly well-off people who've never seen the inside of a drunk tank talk about "reality" like this just bugs me. It's just such a lack of perspective, which is fine, but there's also a lack of awareness that it's there and it's dehumanizing to see people speak about inmates like this. You're arguing basic economics and applying it to the incarcerated human condition as if inmates are a line item of cattle in Excel. (Ask me what comes out of the hole when someone gets repeatedly stabbed with a sharpened toothbrush and what color it is. Hint: not red. That's reality.)

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#170

Post by 8note »

qb45 wrote: post #62
cooper12 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah the good ol' tired "why don't you take refugees into your own home" argument. Why would I need to host them when I don't need to host a jail? The same thing with orphans and refugees. The government provides space for them paid for with my taxes. I don't invite every homeless person I see into my home permanently, doesn't mean I don't care about them or believe the government should combat the issue or open more s…

I don't think I have ever been more obviously sarcastic than here. Of course I knew very well that, despite painting prisoners as victims of moral judgments and suggesting that moral judgments are something wrong altogether, you wouldn't want this crowd anywhere near your house. With my comment, I only wanted to point out this exact hypocrisy. So thank you for confirming that my cynicism is justified. I feel better a…

I'm not seeing where you got "you wouldn't want this crowd anywhere near your house" out of this comment chain. Please elaborate
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