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Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

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Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#131

Post by sametmax »

sametmax wrote: post #112
metafunctor wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? We already have one Reddit.

Because people here are taking themselves too seriously. A bit of humor and subculture could ease them on. You can be an expert/millionaire/famouswhatever and enjoy something else than endless debates where people are trying to be technically correct and pessimistic to the bones. Maybe it's just me ?

replying to me instead of metafunctor cause we reached the limit of nesting for comments

It's ok, there is place for all of us on HN. As long as comments are not mostly filled by either behavior, we can all enjoy the benefit of the intelligent and knowledgeable HN community.

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#132

Post by maxerickson »

kirykl wrote: post #129
CalRobert wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which, indeed, is legal in the US. " Amendment XIII Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted , shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. "

Is that referring though to involuntary labor or involuntary serving of "time"

Labor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_servitude

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#133

Post by Ygg2 »

narag wrote: post #95
jacquesm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is so terribly out-dated. The fact that a prisoner loses their freedom for a specified period of time should be the total of their debt to society. Some reform on this front would be good but I think it will be many decades before the US is ready to confront these things, if it doesn't fall apart beforehand due to the ever increasing divide, both geographically and ideologically.

...freedom for a specified period of time should be the total of their debt to society. I always find the retributionist theory unconfortable. I'd rather understand incarceration as a protection for potential new victims and a warning to others. Also it should be a way to "fix" the inmates, but unfortunately that's often wishful thinking.

There is some merit to it.

In games where there is common good, one way to avoid tragedy of commons is by punishment.

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#134

Post by maxerickson »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #91
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to write that that amendment is from the Civil War, before the private prison complex could develop, lobby for, and become dependent on prison labor. But a bit of research showed that prisons were not exactly bastions of human rights in the good old days.

You can draw a straight line from the 13th Amendment to the private prisons of today. After all, the southern states whose economy was ruined by the Civil War had to get cheap labor somehow, so they arrested all those former slaves for random bullshit like loitering, had them convicted by all-white juries, and sent them to work in chain gangs. Netflix produced a great documentary about all of this - 13th - and it's w…

Most prison labor occurs at publicly owned and operated institutions.

Simply because private prisons hold a small portion of the people incarcerated at a state or federal level.

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#135

Post by darpa_escapee »

scoobydoo123 wrote: post #110
jacquesm wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because ordinary people are just as much a part of society as the criminals that society has decided to lock away. By forcing criminals to work for free society is paying in another way: that work would have been done by someone on the outside, but you can't compete with slave labor. So this is bad both for the inmates and for society from an economic point of view, and then we're side-stepping the moral issue.

Not really. The basic rule of economics is that you have to give something in order to get something. Inmates should be given a choice of working and making money so they can pay for their living or do nothing and starve to death - just like any other member of the society outside of prison. What you're talking about is really a disproportion between amount of work they make (and value they produce) and the total amo…

> Inmates should be given a choice of working and making money so they can pay for their living or do nothing and starve to death - just like any other member of the society outside of prison.

Do you believe the work prisoners do pay for their incarceration costs?

Are you jealous that people whose freedom and agency are taken away are fed and housed by the state?

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#136

Post by draugadrotten »

jacquesm wrote: post #83
adrianN wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a more likely job for a former inmate: Computer repair technician (rip out broken parts, put new parts in) or Javascript frontend engineer?

Well, given the fact that former inmates are just ordinary people again you'd think the likelihood of them attaining either job would be related to their skill level and aptitude. If you'd teach them javascript in prison their chances of landing a javascript front-end engineer would go up dramatically, if you only teach them how to rip up old computers then maybe they'll find a job in recycling at lower pay with a hi…

> If you'd teach them javascript in prison

Thing is, you better start teaching them how to read and write!

60% More than 60 percent of all prison inmates are functionally illiterate. Over 70% of inmates in America's prisons cannot read above a fourth grade level. They are many years away from grasping Closures and Curry.

Source: http://www.begintoread.com/research/literacystatistics.html

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#137

Post by ben010783 »

teekert wrote: post #31
codezero wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proud. The US prison system is oppressive garbage. Good for the inmates.

I read that prisons in the US can actually make profit and have share holders. Perhaps these hacking inmates can work for the CIA on the cheap.

The United States has federal and state prisons. There are also private companies that run prisons. In the US, there are a mix of prisons that are run by the government and ones that are run by private companies. I know the CIA hacking thing sounds funny, but these guys were doing basic social engineering and identity theft.

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#138

Post by monksy »

jacquesm wrote: post #109
rayiner wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think using inmate labor for money should be illegal, but I'm not sure prison would be workable at all without the 13th amendment. What counts as "forced labor?" Does that include forcing inmates to clean up after themselves in their cells or in cafeterias? Note that e.g. the German constitution has a similar carve out for prisoners.

Forced labor is labor that goes outside of the normal housekeeping routine for prisoners. It's really not that hard to make that distinction, you could even do it through the bookkeeping department: any time the prison or its operators are compensated directly or indirectly by outside parties for work done by prisoners that's forced labor too. Keeping their cell and spaces they use voluntarily clean: not forced labor…

> If prisoners are allowed to do any of that work they should be compensated at market rates to make sure there is no unfair competition.

Their output should be priced at near or market rates. (There should be no incentive to using prison labor as a way to get cheap labor) The individual's earnings should be reflective of the local market. They're not able to purchase the same goods as the outside world, nor are the prices reflective of the outside world. (I'm not an expert on that but I have a hard time beliving cigs are $10 a pop in prision)

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#139

Post by celim307 »

thisacctforreal wrote: post #43
paulajohnson wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. You can learn a lot of Javascript by breaking up old computers. This isn't an "education", its just slave labour.

I think if the program is opt-in, that a lot of the inmates could appreciate such a program. I know if I was in jail I'd like to partake in such a program, I could use more hands-on skills with electronics, and recycling is always a good cause :) Some jail programs can be really good, like the program for helping inmates adopt and care for a rescue dog. There was also a program at a jail here for repairing and donati…

The problem is if someone besides the inmate is profiting off of the recycling. I would not feel bueno about that

Re: Investigation finds inmates built computers and hid them in prison ceiling

#140

Post by jacquesm »

draugadrotten wrote: post #136
jacquesm wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, given the fact that former inmates are just ordinary people again you'd think the likelihood of them attaining either job would be related to their skill level and aptitude. If you'd teach them javascript in prison their chances of landing a javascript front-end engineer would go up dramatically, if you only teach them how to rip up old computers then maybe they'll find a job in recycling at lower pay with a hi…

> If you'd teach them javascript in prison Thing is, you better start teaching them how to read and write! 60% More than 60 percent of all prison inmates are functionally illiterate. Over 70% of inmates in America's prisons cannot read above a fourth grade level. They are many years away from grasping Closures and Curry. Source: http://www.begintoread.com/research/literacystatistics.html

That's a good place to start then, but even better would be to have - you know, like most other places on earth in the developed world - a school system that would ensure basic literacy by the ripe old age of 9 or so.
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