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Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

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Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#341

Post by api »

Eridrus wrote: post #340
api wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has been the rhetoric since the 1960s. That is the rhetoric that is obviously not working. I call this the "abstinence based" approach to solving environmental problems. Guilt and shame and preach people into denying their "sinful nature." It works about as well as telling teenagers not to have sex. We have made a near idol out of technology because the benefits of modern technology and all its associated energy…

I'm pretty sure this rhetoric is a big part of the conservative reaction to climate change, you're not going to listen to some holier than thou hippy tell you that you have to change your life based on some pseudo-spiritual bullshit.

This is the liberal approach. Environmentalists of the shame, guilt, and moralizing school are reactionaries. They want to deprive people of what they want in the name of high ideals and return to an idyllic time of purity in the past (that never existed).

The liberal approach to CO2 emission is solar, wind, nuclear, hydro, and EVs. The liberal approach to STDs and teenage pregnancy is for the man to put a rubber thing on his wang.

The American right ignores this problem entirely, so they haven't even made it that far. On sexual externalities they are consistently conservative or reactionary.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#342

Post by caf »

PeterisP wrote: post #316
Jare wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we are making one of the BEST trade-offs humanity has ever seen Either you believe that we are not heading to a near extinction-level event, that we will prevent it before it happens, or that such an event is a fair price to pay for enjoying a century of computers and iphones. The first option seems blind, the second baseless optimism, and the 3rd... I don't really know what to say. Is there a 4th?

Do you believe that we are heading to near extinction-level event? As far as I have seen, even the most extreme predictions of climate change consequences don't come close to that. I have seen predictions expecting mass forced migrations, decrease in sustainable population, etc; but unless you're literally expecting the vast majority of the worldwide population to die, it's not an extinction-level event, it's not nea…

I think "near-extinction" might be hard to credit - humans have survived tough times before - but I also don't think a mere "horrible catastrophe" sounds like a reasonable price to pay for the recent century and a half of rapid progress either.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#344

Post by Eridrus »

d_theorist wrote: post #232

I don't understand why more isn't done to implement large-scale carbon capture and storage technologies. There are quite well-understood and proven technologies to do this, but they don't seem to be on anybody's agenda. Trying to bring down CO2 concentration by convincing people to give up cars, food and planes is obviously a losing strategy. If we're serious about preventing climate change we're going to have to act…

My understanding was that they were expensive and without a price on carbon, no one has an incentive to do it.

You don't actually even need to get it out of the atmosphere, you can retrofit power plants with carbon capture tech that is more efficient, but still, there is no incentive.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#345

Post by mindcrime »

vitro wrote: post #301
mindcrime wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humanity as a species is going to end no matter what we do. Or do you have a solution for the heat death of the universe?

Ok, so why not to end it right now, it does not matter, right?

In the strictest sense, no. But one difference, which might matter to some people, is that "ending it now" seems to imply actively killing people. Most people, I believe, would see that as inherently different from simply dying due to whatever interaction(s) happen with the natural environment around us.

All of that said, I'm not arguing against pursuing actions to protect the environment. Just pointing out that "preventing the extermination of the human race" really isn't a terribly good justification for doing so when you look at the big picture.

If you accept that premise, the question then becomes: "what are the good arguments for pursuing actions to protect the environment / reverse climate change?" That is, what arguments will persuade people to care about protecting the environment for future generations that don't exist yet, in a time beyond their own limited lifespan?

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#346

Post by adrianN »

mikelyons wrote: post #332
adrianN wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some beliefs are less false than other beliefs: http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm

While I get what you're saying, the "fact" of the matter is if you think about it long and hard with an open mind you eventually discover that all belief are false and that there is no gradient of falsehood. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FtVLnmuJzg

I believe that your belief that all beliefs are false and that there is no gradient to the falsehood is false

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#347

Post by cmrdporcupine »

alistproducer2 wrote: post #328

IMO a large part of the failure to deal with this problem has to do with political cowardice on the part of the left. Sometimes if you're just honest with people as opposed to constantly trying to sugar coat, lie, or guilt trip people things go better. It's truly baffling to me that dim-witted local politicians can constantly convince local populations into tax increases and blowing up of local coffers to build sport…

In the west there is almost no "left" left. A classical socialist or radical left response to this crisis would be entirely different: "we need a planned economy." The modern simpering liberal "left" just moans about carbon offsets and sign a few non-binding international agreements, and continue things as usual.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#348

Post by Jare »

PeterisP wrote: post #316
Jare wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we are making one of the BEST trade-offs humanity has ever seen Either you believe that we are not heading to a near extinction-level event, that we will prevent it before it happens, or that such an event is a fair price to pay for enjoying a century of computers and iphones. The first option seems blind, the second baseless optimism, and the 3rd... I don't really know what to say. Is there a 4th?

Do you believe that we are heading to near extinction-level event? As far as I have seen, even the most extreme predictions of climate change consequences don't come close to that. I have seen predictions expecting mass forced migrations, decrease in sustainable population, etc; but unless you're literally expecting the vast majority of the worldwide population to die, it's not an extinction-level event, it's not nea…

"Horrible catastrophe" works, but it doesn't stop there. How are humans and our political and military structures going to react?

It is debatable how close we have been, during various past crisis, to an actual large-scale nuclear conflict. I don't think we can deny our raw capability to cause a near-extinction-level with our existing technology (nuclear, biological or otherwise). Our political and military ecosystems, flawed as they may be, have kept that capability in check.

But would such a "horrible catastrophe" stress that ecosystem way past the point where it will remain confidently under control? Absolutely yes, I believe that beyond any reasonable doubt.

With our global structure out of control, is there is a significant probability for that destructive capability to be put into action? Absolutely yes, I believe that probability to be significant, beyond any reasonable doubt. I don't see how it can't be otherwise.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#350

Post by jbattle »

alistproducer2 wrote: post #328

IMO a large part of the failure to deal with this problem has to do with political cowardice on the part of the left. Sometimes if you're just honest with people as opposed to constantly trying to sugar coat, lie, or guilt trip people things go better. It's truly baffling to me that dim-witted local politicians can constantly convince local populations into tax increases and blowing up of local coffers to build sport…

Take a look at this survey Yale did:

http://climatecommunication.yale.edu/visualizations-data/yco...

The found that even though large %'s of americans believe the climate is changing, a relatively small number (nationwide) think it will actually affect them personally.

Aside from CA/FL/TX and a few other scattered points, people think they will escape the coming changes unscathed

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