Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards • Hacker News Board

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#331

Post by demonshalo » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 1:27 PM UTC

api wrote: post #327

delegate wrote: post #145

The message I"m getting is not that I have to prepare for something or change energy sources , it's that "our lifestyle is killing the planet much faster than we thought". CO2 levels is just one of a myriad of indicators that are off the scale now. By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, ou…

That has been the rhetoric since the 1960s. That is the rhetoric that is obviously not working. I call this the "abstinence based" approach to solving environmental problems. Guilt and shame and preach people into denying their "sinful nature." It works about as well as telling teenagers not to have sex. We have made a near idol out of technology because the benefits of modern technology and all its associated energy…

A fucking MEN!

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#332

Post by mikelyons » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 1:29 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #275

mikelyons wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everyone was seeking enlightenment, there would be no incentives. Incentives are entirely constructions of the ego. Also, most of the posters seem ignorant to the fact that science and rationality are equally as dogmatic as the most fundamentalist religion. All beliefs are false, there is no argument against that.

Some beliefs are less false than other beliefs: http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm

While I get what you're saying, the "fact" of the matter is if you think about it long and hard with an open mind you eventually discover that all belief are false and that there is no gradient of falsehood. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FtVLnmuJzg

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#333

Post by IanCal » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 1:30 PM UTC

d_theorist wrote: post #232

I don't understand why more isn't done to implement large-scale carbon capture and storage technologies. There are quite well-understood and proven technologies to do this, but they don't seem to be on anybody's agenda. Trying to bring down CO2 concentration by convincing people to give up cars, food and planes is obviously a losing strategy. If we're serious about preventing climate change we're going to have to act…

Are they reasonable to deploy on the scale we actually need?

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#334

Post by mikelyons » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 1:30 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #274

mikelyons wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everyone was seeking enlightenment, there would be no incentives. Incentives are entirely constructions of the ego. Also, most of the posters seem ignorant to the fact that science and rationality are equally as dogmatic as the most fundamentalist religion. All beliefs are false, there is no argument against that.

No contest. I can't argue spirituality, enlightenment. "If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him." While I personally believe we'd all be better off reconnecting with awe, wonder, our place in the universe... When's the last time you watched the Milky Way? Heard the birds singing without the roar of airliners? ...Those beliefs aren't actionable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FtVLnmuJzg All beliefs are false, upon discovering this you can seek enlightenment because you will not follow the desire for sex, wealth, power, or even the desire for enlightenment itself, attainment is illusion as is thought

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#335

Post by spangry » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 1:31 PM UTC

qwtel wrote: post #268

> Limiting the global mean temperature rise to below 2°C with a probability of 66% would require an energy transition of exceptional scope, depth and speed. It seems that sovereigns don't quite think like individuals: If this was a personal decision, I'd just put my hopes in boarding a plain that has a 66% chance of making it to its destination (or at least that's what the pilot, in an effort to look respectable, is…

Although it's fashionable to denigrate 'economists' nowadays, I see this as a consequence of sovereigns not thinking like economists.

At the macro level, it's a classic collective action problem - the tragedy of the commons [0]. There are many well-known and efficient solutions. So I guess the real problem is a lack of political will. The US and China are mostly to blame for the lack of global action. Yes this is probably 'unfair', but it still happens to be the case. Everyone comes to the bargaining table when those two are there. Heck, they could easily enforce a bilateral agreement on the rest of the world if they really wanted to.

And at the national level, there's so much well-intentioned yet nonetheless sub-optimal, or frankly stupid, policy responses to this issue. Targeted technology subsidies, target abatement schemes, 'renewable energy targets' (i.e. picked winner targets, or 'cap and trade' without the trade) etc. It makes me want to scream.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#336

Post by falcolas » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 1:31 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #211

harwoodleon wrote: post #207

This is very simple, but something most of the HN people won't be able to do. STOP FLYING! Passenger numbers have gone up in a step change with CO2 count over the last 50 years, contrails compound the effect. The sad thing is - you will all look at this message and think. Why should I have to change? Why me, surely someone else must fix this? Don't wait for governments, don't wait for industry. Make individual choice…

What's the alternative? As an EU company, if I need to do business in the US then I can't say "let's schedule a meeting in a year while I go on a boat cruise". Virtual meetings only work to an extent -- they lack a human interaction touch. I suppose I can take a train if I go on holiday somewhere in the EU, but insane prices for international trains as well as other shenanigans are not making it an attractive choice.

There's another alternative - the slow boat. You can get from Europe to the US for around $700 on a cargo ship. The biggest difference is that it will take around 5-7 days one way. Most programmer's productivity wouldn't suffer too much from this, though managers or business owners might.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#337

Post by mikelyons » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 1:32 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #274

mikelyons wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everyone was seeking enlightenment, there would be no incentives. Incentives are entirely constructions of the ego. Also, most of the posters seem ignorant to the fact that science and rationality are equally as dogmatic as the most fundamentalist religion. All beliefs are false, there is no argument against that.

No contest. I can't argue spirituality, enlightenment. "If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him." While I personally believe we'd all be better off reconnecting with awe, wonder, our place in the universe... When's the last time you watched the Milky Way? Heard the birds singing without the roar of airliners? ...Those beliefs aren't actionable.

In fact, you wont even seek to save the planet or to change anything that's happening because things simply are, there is nothing that you'd prefer, extinction or to thrive, pleasure and pain all simply become sensations with no judgement as to whether they hurt or benefit you because those are judgements of the ego https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FtVLnmuJzg

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#338

Post by caf » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 1:32 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #212

UweSchmidt wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assertion is that, as cool as iPhones and flying are, this lifestyle may or may not be sustainable, e.g. regarding the CO2 levels. Leaving aside your silly anger about "hippie bullshit" (really?) and regardless of our history of "competing, losing, getting ahead", what would you propose? Are we just going to brace for pain, and then compete over diminishing ressources? Consider: all of environment protection legi…

> Consider: all of environment protection legislation that we take for granted now was once "hippie bullshit". In part; I think environmental policies and technologies are very strongly influenced by economics and capitalism. I mean they managed to monetize CO2 emissions via emission rights. It's making money out of vapor. There's probably a few people getting very rich off of the emission rights market. The other on…

It's making money out of vapor.

No, it's making money out of the process of assigning a limited resource to the most economically efficient use.

...not when the production of a solar panel costs more energy than it'll generate during its lifetime.

This is just rubbish. The embodied energy payback period of solar PV was already under 4 years a decade ago.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#339

Post by shrimp_emoji » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 1:33 PM UTC

demonshalo wrote: post #182

delegate wrote: post #145

The message I"m getting is not that I have to prepare for something or change energy sources , it's that "our lifestyle is killing the planet much faster than we thought". CO2 levels is just one of a myriad of indicators that are off the scale now. By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, ou…

> By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, outcompeting, etc. All those ego-centric values that are the basis of our socio-economic systems - focused on disconnecting the `self` from `other` - are wrong on a fundamental level. By 'spirituality' I mean the deep realisation of the larger conte…

>Man this pseudo spiritual hippie bullshit annoys me to no end.

This guy gets it; he's laffin.

"We affirm that the world’s magnificence has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. A racing car whose hood is adorned with great pipes, like serpents of explosive breath - a roaring car that seems to ride on grapeshot is more beautiful than the Victory of Samothrace.

We want to hymn the man at the wheel, who hurls the lance of his spirit across the Earth, along the circle of its orbit.

We will sing of the vibrant nightly fervour of arsenals and shipyards blazing with violent electric moons; greedy railway stations that devour smoke-plumed serpents; factories hung on clouds by the crooked lines of their smoke; bridges that stride the rivers like giant gymnasts, flashing in the sun with a glitter of knives; adventurous steamers that sniff the horizon; deep-chested locomotives whose wheels paw the tracks like the hooves of enormous steel horses bridled by tubing; and the sleek flight of planes whose propellers chatter in the wind like banners and seem to cheer like an enthusiastic crowd.

Look at us! We are still untired! Our hearts know no weariness because they are fed with fire, hatred, and speed!... Does that amaze you? It should, because you can never remember having lived! Erect on the summit of the world, once again we hurl our defiance at the stars!"

(Which is where we should head, by the way, before our lease here expires.)

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#340

Post by Eridrus » Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 1:33 PM UTC

api wrote: post #327

delegate wrote: post #145

The message I"m getting is not that I have to prepare for something or change energy sources , it's that "our lifestyle is killing the planet much faster than we thought". CO2 levels is just one of a myriad of indicators that are off the scale now. By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, ou…

That has been the rhetoric since the 1960s. That is the rhetoric that is obviously not working. I call this the "abstinence based" approach to solving environmental problems. Guilt and shame and preach people into denying their "sinful nature." It works about as well as telling teenagers not to have sex. We have made a near idol out of technology because the benefits of modern technology and all its associated energy…

I'm pretty sure this rhetoric is a big part of the conservative reaction to climate change, you're not going to listen to some holier than thou hippy tell you that you have to change your life based on some pseudo-spiritual bullshit.