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A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

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Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#511

Post by gargravarr »

I feel the need to add my feeling of horror and revulsion at what United did here. I'm British and cannot think of a single justifiable reason to violently remove a passenger who has paid for the right to fly, and is obeying the rules.

Purchasing a ticket creates a contract between the individual and the airline; so long as the passenger upholds their end, which from what I can tell this passenger did, the airline is violating their end of the contract, and worse is getting the police involved in what is essentially a contractual matter. This is dangerously totalitarian, getting officers who are employed to protect the population to enforce the whims of the corporation. I simply cannot believe anyone along the chain of communication here didn't stop and say, 'this is wrong'. The lack of humanity is simply astounding - I am at a loss for words.

I sincerely hope he sues both the airline and the police for this, it's assault and breach of contract. I'll echo what others are saying, this is a dangerous situation to allow to quiet down. We need to keep pressure on United until the responsible parties are made to answer for their decisions.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#512

Post by CaptainZapp »

khedoros1 wrote: post #508
CaptainZapp wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not trespassing when you are in an establishment, a venue, or even a plane having bought a valid ticket for said establishment, venue or plane.

Are you sure about that, if they inform you that they're revoking your ticket and telling you to leave? Passengers are required to obey the flight crew at all times. "Rule 21: Refusal of Transport: UA shall have the right to refuse to transport or shall have the right to remove from the aircraft at any point, any Passenger for the following reasons:" "H. Safety – Whenever refusal or removal of a Passenger may be nece…

  Are you sure about that
No, I'm not :)

What is clear, though, is that he had a right to be on his seat before the whole sorry mess started. They probably could get him for "interfering with a flight crew" or some such crap after they asked him to leave.

While passengers usually do get the short end of the stick (and in the case of United it appears that the stick is always covered in shit, but I digress) I think the situation in Europe is a lot better.

When bumped, or even if you experience extended delays the airline must compensate you in cash. No useless vouchers, which are hard to redeem. There are a few exceptions, were that doesn't apply, namely if delays are beyond their control. Mechanical problems, however, don't count because it's their duty to properly maintain their gear.

Passenger rights within the EU are clearly spelled out and airlines can't subvert them by mealy mouthed "contracts of carriage"

I'd also wager that this wouldn't have escalated to this point virtually anywhere in Europe. Since the "smack him in the face and that'll teach him to comply" philosophy of policing seems much less aparent.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#513

Post by vsl »

mcv wrote: post #349
chimeracoder wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In many countries, police are trained to de-escalate potentially hostile situations. Only in the US and probably a couple of police states are police officers required to escalate to violence. It's not that simple. The police in the US are trained to de-escalate situations too. That doesn't stop police violence from occurring either in the US or elsewhere (there is no shortage of horrific stories of police abuse fr…

> The police in the US are trained to de-escalate situations too. Are you sure? I've never heard of it. I have heard of a police officer who was fired for de-escalating a situation through his training as a marine. Maybe some police department do train their officers to de-escalate, but it's very clear that many don't. In fact, many US police officers are overly eager to de-escalate. > That doesn't stop police violen…

> I've never heard of it.

Wonder why. Because it's not newsworthy.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#514

Post by Mithaldu »

tim333 wrote: post #479
papabrown wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that to be true. I believe that often ends up happening but I don't believe it to be a sure enough outcome that one can link the two with such certainty. I hate to sound like an old guy but I do remember when police used to try to resolve issues. Much like many police interactions I've witnessed in Europe and elsewhere in the world. Police used to try to get everyone to calm down and figure out a solu…

In the UK the police are still very reluctant to use unnecessary violence. It often surprises me that the US system is so otherwise. I mean who benefits?

It's not really about benefit. UK police, like most european police, have no expectation that anyone they encounter might be in possession of a firearm.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#515

Post by shamas »

ryandrake wrote: post #160

My predictions: 1. There will be no personal consequences for any of the belligerents involved in this, including the airline employees and police officers. Nobody is going to get fired. 2. The victim will receive no compensation for his injuries, instead will be further victimized in the courts. 3. There will be no business cost to United. They are already known as one of the most awful airlines in the world, and pe…

I wasn't aware of how terrible they were and I won't be flying with them anymore, and I will be flying in the USA a lot in the next 12 months. But every airline I've tried here has been impossibly terrible, so...

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#516

Post by maxmcorp »

djsumdog wrote: post #291
vwcx wrote: post #101

The real thing to fear here is the normalization of violence. Good perspective in the WP comments: "The truly shocking thing here is that violence - with the real possibility of serious injury - was viewed as appropriate in a situation that was purely logistical. The airline wanted seats for its own employees. This was not an emergency - such as a terrorist attack or a drunk passenger endangering people. The lack of…

You should read "Debt the First 5,000 Years". It's an amazing book, and one of the things the author talks about is how debt requires violence. You can't put a man into debt unless you have the capacity for violence to enforce it. He doesn't pay you back, you break his legs, or take his sons and daughters as slaves. Today we have reduced the violence. Now companies ruin credit, get a Sheriff to evict someone from a h…

But then debt and better money management and institutes has created the most peaceful and less violent societies in the world.

In "original" societies it is not abnormal for 50% of males to die violent deads. In our societies it is less than 2% as far as i remember. Including two world wars!

So the violence of debt is not that relevant in the big picture.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#517

Post by jschulenklopper »

jbeales wrote: post #236

For comparison, Delta had a huge number of overbooked flights over the weekend due to weather cancellations. They handled it by raising the compensation for giving up your seat until they had the right number of passengers for the flights. As a result they got some great press on a weekend when they might have had horrible press: https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2017/04/09/why...

Happened to me, flying with Delta last Saturday. During online check in, so almost 24 hours before I was at JFK for my flight, the web application offered a choice between four levels of compensation I'd be willing to trade my ticket for, like $100, $200, $300 and $500.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#518

Post by Doxin »

synicalx wrote: post #489
pbiggar wrote: post #12

Buried at the bottom: > "The airline eventually cleared everyone from the plane, Bridges said, and did not let them back on until the man was removed a second time — in a stretcher." My reading is they beat him so badly they had to put him in a stretcher. Is that right?

He was fine, before they finally got him out he was running up and down the plane.

There's a clear difference between fine and physically fine. The man is rather clearly in a rather severe mental state when he got on the plane the second time.

For comparison: a close friend suffers from tonic-clonic seizures. That's the kind you see in movies when they try to be dramating, violent shaking, foaming at the mouth. the whole nine yards. After waking up from a seizure like that he often acts rather single-mindedly towards a goal, turning violent if anything or anyone is in his way. A while back he had a seizure in public, it took 6 police officers to get him wrangled into the ambulance. This sort of significant personality change doesn't happen from a slight bump to the head. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy has a rather severe concussion.

So no. I don't think the adult man frantically mumbling "I gotta get home, I gotta get home, I gotta get home" with a bloodied face is fine by any stretch of the imagination. In fact I reckon the only reason he managed to get back on the plane is because of, to put it bluntly, retard strength caused by a serious knock to the brain.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#519

Post by Doxin »

passivepinetree wrote: post #82
mnm1 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they should have figured that out before boarding everyone. This is a colossal fuckup. The airline assaulted its own customers beating them till they had to be carried out on a stretcher. And yet people still defend them.

Obviously United was in the wrong here, but you might be going a little far. The main purpose of the stretcher might have been for restraining the man. It's wise to avoid making such inflammatory statements until we know more.

The main purpose of the stretcher was most definitely because the man was severely injured. Go hang around people with a confused mental state for a while and you'll recognise the behaviour the man shows when het gets back on the plane. He isn't just being a stubborn ass there.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#520

Post by Can_Not »

maxmcorp wrote: post #516
djsumdog wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read "Debt the First 5,000 Years". It's an amazing book, and one of the things the author talks about is how debt requires violence. You can't put a man into debt unless you have the capacity for violence to enforce it. He doesn't pay you back, you break his legs, or take his sons and daughters as slaves. Today we have reduced the violence. Now companies ruin credit, get a Sheriff to evict someone from a h…

But then debt and better money management and institutes has created the most peaceful and less violent societies in the world. In "original" societies it is not abnormal for 50% of males to die violent deads. In our societies it is less than 2% as far as i remember. Including two world wars! So the violence of debt is not that relevant in the big picture.

Did they create peace, or do they export violence?
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