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A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

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Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#341

Post by Mithaldu »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #322
FireBeyond wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still doesn't make the original flight "oversold". That's a very specific term in airline travel relating to ticketed seats sold for a flight, not a United staffing fuckup. Edited: for clarity.

> Not a United staffing fuckup If a doctor gets physically assaulted by Chicago's Aviation Authority staff because you didn't leave four seats free on your flight, you most assuredly fucked up.

He's saying this IS a staffing fuckup, and the term "oversold" or "overbooked" is wrong here, as it relates to having too many tickets for a plane, not UA staff fucking up.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#342

Post by MaxfordAndSons »

chimeracoder wrote: post #324
mcv wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police should be retrained not to use violence. (Is this reasonable? You can imagine other instances where this where this would endanger them.) That is absolutely reasonable. In many countries, police are trained to de-escalate potentially hostile situations. Only in the US and probably a couple of police states are police officers required to escalate to violence. And it's that tendency to escalate to violenc…

> In many countries, police are trained to de-escalate potentially hostile situations. Only in the US and probably a couple of police states are police officers required to escalate to violence. It's not that simple. The police in the US are trained to de-escalate situations too. That doesn't stop police violence from occurring either in the US or elsewhere (there is no shortage of horrific stories of police abuse fr…

>The police in the US are trained to de-escalate situations too.

Sure, but practically speaking if you have a realistic understanding of how most US police forces operate, you know that involving them in any kind of dispute greatly increases the chance of violence and harm for all involved. YMMV per locality and situation, but it's a pretty sensible rule of thumb that police involvement equals increased risk of violence, even in previously nonviolent conflicts.

Which is sad and unnecessary. I think it directly results from the prevalence of "warrior mentality" in US police training and operations. They are trained to view all citizens as potential enemy combatants to be dominated, rather than innocents to be protected; they are trained to put the safety of themselves and other officers above the safety of the citizenry; and they are trained to, if not always escalate, certainly to err on the side of escalation if there is any hint of violent action or ill intent from the citizens they interact with.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#343

Post by AnimalMuppet »

mcv wrote: post #339
londons_explore wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A ticket is just a deal between you and the airline. At any point the airline can decide it's not going to uphold that deal. Sure, you can try to go to the courts to get monetary compensation for that, but you can't force them to provide the service.

That makes them an unreliable partner to deal with. A ticket is not just a simple product, there are other deals depending on it. You may have a vacation booked, an important meeting, a funeral, or anything else. Missing your flight could mean missing a lot more than just the flight. The airline should take their agreements a lot more seriously than this.

But if the airline takes their agreement a lot more seriously than this, then they're going to need to have reserve capacity. No more overbooking flights. Have standby pilots and planes available. Those things cost, and will show up in ticket prices.

The public has pretty well demonstrated that they prefer lower-price tickets over a higher-quality flying experience. So the airlines are giving the public what (the majority of) the public wants - a crappy, but cheap, experience.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#344

Post by Mithaldu »

uptown wrote: post #216
walterbell wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One article claimed that a stun gun was used, hence the need to drag him out. Edit: it was a tweet quoted by Vanity Fair, http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/04/united-airlines-passe...

They also smashed his face against the arm rest. That seems like it may have been a contributing factor.

Y'all somehow missed the article saying he was carried out on a stretcher AFTER he went onto the plane a SECOND time.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#345

Post by justin66 »

From a purely customer service conflict resolution standpoint, the fact that the guy claimed to be a doctor gave whoever was handling the situation for United a very easy out and a way to move on to the next person. I wonder why they didn't take it.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#346

Post by AnimalMuppet »

sheepdestroyer wrote: post #337
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> debt requires violence Any kind of property requires violence to exist. If I say "this is my land" and you disagree, the only way I can enforce my claim is through violence. Debt is just a specific case of a general phenomenon. (This applies to communal property, too.) > Before the US destroyed Libya, it had the highest GDP in Africa Do you have a source for this? I see Libya's GDP circa 2005 at $41 billion (in 200…

Property is theft already if you believe Proudhon.

And why should I believe Proudhon?

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#347

Post by djsumdog »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #310
djsumdog wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read "Debt the First 5,000 Years". It's an amazing book, and one of the things the author talks about is how debt requires violence. You can't put a man into debt unless you have the capacity for violence to enforce it. He doesn't pay you back, you break his legs, or take his sons and daughters as slaves. Today we have reduced the violence. Now companies ruin credit, get a Sheriff to evict someone from a h…

> debt requires violence Any kind of property requires violence to exist. If I say "this is my land" and you disagree, the only way I can enforce my claim is through violence. Debt is just a specific case of a general phenomenon. (This applies to communal property, too.) > Before the US destroyed Libya, it had the highest GDP in Africa Do you have a source for this? I see Libya's GDP circa 2005 at $41 billion (in 200…

Sorry. I should have said "per capita."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/libya-from-africas-richest-stat...

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#348

Post by WalterSear »

chimeracoder wrote: post #324
mcv wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police should be retrained not to use violence. (Is this reasonable? You can imagine other instances where this where this would endanger them.) That is absolutely reasonable. In many countries, police are trained to de-escalate potentially hostile situations. Only in the US and probably a couple of police states are police officers required to escalate to violence. And it's that tendency to escalate to violenc…

> In many countries, police are trained to de-escalate potentially hostile situations. Only in the US and probably a couple of police states are police officers required to escalate to violence. It's not that simple. The police in the US are trained to de-escalate situations too. That doesn't stop police violence from occurring either in the US or elsewhere (there is no shortage of horrific stories of police abuse fr…

They aren't penalized for escalating it inappropriately.

Even being fired for cause just means getting the same job in the next town over.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#349

Post by mcv »

chimeracoder wrote: post #324
mcv wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police should be retrained not to use violence. (Is this reasonable? You can imagine other instances where this where this would endanger them.) That is absolutely reasonable. In many countries, police are trained to de-escalate potentially hostile situations. Only in the US and probably a couple of police states are police officers required to escalate to violence. And it's that tendency to escalate to violenc…

> In many countries, police are trained to de-escalate potentially hostile situations. Only in the US and probably a couple of police states are police officers required to escalate to violence. It's not that simple. The police in the US are trained to de-escalate situations too. That doesn't stop police violence from occurring either in the US or elsewhere (there is no shortage of horrific stories of police abuse fr…

> The police in the US are trained to de-escalate situations too.

Are you sure? I've never heard of it. I have heard of a police officer who was fired for de-escalating a situation through his training as a marine.

Maybe some police department do train their officers to de-escalate, but it's very clear that many don't. In fact, many US police officers are overly eager to de-escalate.

> That doesn't stop police violence from occurring either in the US or elsewhere (there is no shortage of horrific stories of police abuse from western/central Europe as well, for example).

Compared to the US, there is absolutely a shortage of stories about police abuse in western/central Europe. Yes, it happens, but not on that scale, and the kind of police violence that Americans have come to accept as normal is not considered acceptable in most of Europe.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#350

Post by kchoudhu »

xapata wrote: post #131
mabbo wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that costs money immediately. Forcing someone off the plane and causing a huge HR mess only costs money long-term, and it doesn't come out of my budget, so why should I care?

Good point. Whoever set the incentives badly and set some arbitrary cap at $1350 should be fired.

I dream of a world where bump compensation is unlimited. The same people who now churn miles to fly everywhere for free would then start strategically chasing storms to get bumped from flights and make tens of thousands of dollars in compensation.

We have mileage runs and mattress runs already; why can't we have bump runs as well?

Someone get Carl Weathers on the phone!

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