A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off • Hacker News Board

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#201

Post by cmurf » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

xapata wrote: post #131

mabbo wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that costs money immediately. Forcing someone off the plane and causing a huge HR mess only costs money long-term, and it doesn't come out of my budget, so why should I care?

Good point. Whoever set the incentives badly and set some arbitrary cap at $1350 should be fired.

That would be a regulator or Congress. The airline would set no cap, if they could get away with macing you to get you off the airplane, they would. "Next time, just get off the plane when we ask the first time."

When a family member, or associate of Congress gets hit with this experience, then maybe the fines get adjusted accordingly.

Anyway, hopefully the guy gets a good lawyer.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#202

Post by protomyth » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

WillyOnWheels wrote: post #78

ArtDev wrote: post #65

I hope he sues the pants off them. There is a racist angle here too. Why target the Chinese guy?

A Computer randomly selected 4 passengers for removal.

I get the feeling a lawyer will want to see that "program"'s source code. I also get the feeling that will be some interesting moments in court.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#203

Post by mnglkhn2 » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

67726e wrote: post #130

vwcx wrote: post #101

The real thing to fear here is the normalization of violence. Good perspective in the WP comments: "The truly shocking thing here is that violence - with the real possibility of serious injury - was viewed as appropriate in a situation that was purely logistical. The airline wanted seats for its own employees. This was not an emergency - such as a terrorist attack or a drunk passenger endangering people. The lack of…

So what do you do when someone refuses to leave? I'm on the doctor's side, United should not overbook a plane and bump a customer to get their own people on board, but when someone refuses to leave what other options do you have? Taze him and drag him off? You'll have to use force to remove someone.

If you pay me then you can come. It is called AirBnb. If you show up, settle in and then see me coming to you and asking you to go out since I need to use the room for myself for the night. Business-related stuff, you understand.

How do you feel? It is dark, rainy and tomorrow at 8 you have a job interview in the city.

You better pack up nicely and quickly, because I'll call the cops otherwise.

Let me know if you feel like you'd understand the situation.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#204

Post by pera » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #149

vwcx wrote: post #101

The real thing to fear here is the normalization of violence. Good perspective in the WP comments: "The truly shocking thing here is that violence - with the real possibility of serious injury - was viewed as appropriate in a situation that was purely logistical. The airline wanted seats for its own employees. This was not an emergency - such as a terrorist attack or a drunk passenger endangering people. The lack of…

I think United were wrong here (maybe not legally) but morally and, even from their self-interest they took a major PR hit. People involved in this should be getting termination letters immediately. However, I am curious. Once they made the decision to remove him. How could they have done so if he didn't want to move? A taser?

Randomly selecting passengers is not a bright idea, specially after they boarded into the airplane and are already seated. Just offer more money until you find a real volunteer: even if you have to pay $10k that's going to be much better economically and morally than forcing a random client out of a plane.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#205

Post by MrMember » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #149

vwcx wrote: post #101

The real thing to fear here is the normalization of violence. Good perspective in the WP comments: "The truly shocking thing here is that violence - with the real possibility of serious injury - was viewed as appropriate in a situation that was purely logistical. The airline wanted seats for its own employees. This was not an emergency - such as a terrorist attack or a drunk passenger endangering people. The lack of…

I think United were wrong here (maybe not legally) but morally and, even from their self-interest they took a major PR hit. People involved in this should be getting termination letters immediately. However, I am curious. Once they made the decision to remove him. How could they have done so if he didn't want to move? A taser?

Based on the circumstances (he wasn't a danger to anyone or acting out in any unreasonable way) the better choice probably would have been to just leave him be. He may not have had a legal "right" to be on the plane and United may have been within their rights to remove him but it can't have been worth the image hit to have him strongarmed off the plane. If they had given up on removing him and just picked someone else, or raised the compensation for someone to voluntarily give up their seat, or found another way to get their crew to their destination, this wouldn't have even been a story.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#206

Post by defen » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

kordless wrote: post #105

objclxt wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It's a federal crime to disobey instructions of the flight or the captain. If they ask you to leave the aircraft you're required to leave. If you refuse and need to be physically removed, tough. Not that I'm saying this makes United's behavior acceptable - I have no idea how they managed to load the plane before realizing they needed extra seats - just that the law is, in this case, on their side.

I'm not trying to rationalize anyone's actions here, but if the captain told you to kill another passenger, that is not within his right of removal of choice for individual. i.e. The captain is only allowed to remove choice for an individual when the group is threatened, given they are in charge, by law, of making choices for group (perhaps for the reason of or related to in-flight matters). Edit: changed he to they.

The captain has extremely broad latitude over who is allowed to be on the flight. He doesn't need to give a reason for kicking someone off.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#207

Post by mrec » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

mnglkhn2 wrote: post #139

manacit wrote: post #6

Someone on a different message board put this situation very well: By the letter of the law, United was correct - morally, they were not. Their 'contract of carriage' allows them to IDB (Involuntary Deny Boarding) to passengers due to overselling, and bump people off at-will. Depending on how delayed the passenger would be to their final destination, they would owe compensation (up to a max of $1350) for the trouble.…

For some reason it looks a little bit off considering that he was already boarded and in his seat. I can understand the reasoning if it is executed at gate or check-in. It happened to me, and while frustrating, you comply. But if you have to take people off the aircraft, that looks like a last minute decision made by the airline to move staff. The best approach would have been to up the reward/incentive.

But if it was a last-minute thing, what happens to checked baggage, which may have already been loaded onto the plane by that point?

Does this imply you're much more likely to get picked for last-minute eviction if you didn't check anything in?

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#208

Post by crooked-v » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #150

toomuchtodo wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's equipment waiting in Louisville, and another entire plane isn't going anywhere without them, that's how its justifiable. IDB means you can (legally) be physically removed from a flight. With that said, don't drag people off your flights. No matter what it costs you to get staff where they need to be when you make this mistake, it'll be cheaper than the negative publicity of a physical altercation removing…

> With that said, don't drag people off your flights. No matter what it costs you to get staff where they need to be when you make this mistake, it'll be cheaper than the negative publicity of a physical altercation removing a passenger (even if you need to retask a commuter aircraft just to relocate the crew, or ask another carrier to get them there). Of course, that just gives a hecker's veto to anyone insubordinat…

> and have police waiting for the recalcitrant passenger at the destination airport

To do what, exactly?

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#209

Post by djsumdog » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #31

rhino369 wrote: post #8

The outrage mob is pushing this pretty hard. Booting people off a plane is pretty shitty behavior for an airline. It's bad customer service and they should dealt with it earlier than after boarding. But if they have to do it, the passenger shouldn't be allowed to just refuse. This guy did. And he had to get dragged off the plane. I don't really see an alternative other than just letting anyone willing to scream to st…

> I don't really see an alternative other than just letting anyone willing to scream to stay and then boot off another customer with dignity. Offer people compensation. Raise the offer until either (a) someone takes it, or (b) it's cheaper to send the employees via another route.

Exactly. At this point they're trying not to cancel another plane load of people, so that's a lot of money. They should have kept going up, "We'll offer $4,000 .. anyone? .. really?" ..

At some point the compensation isn't worth the profit margin of the other flight. They can just cancel it and let the flight crew go home.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#210

Post by devereaux » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

67726e wrote: post #130

vwcx wrote: post #101

The real thing to fear here is the normalization of violence. Good perspective in the WP comments: "The truly shocking thing here is that violence - with the real possibility of serious injury - was viewed as appropriate in a situation that was purely logistical. The airline wanted seats for its own employees. This was not an emergency - such as a terrorist attack or a drunk passenger endangering people. The lack of…

So what do you do when someone refuses to leave? I'm on the doctor's side, United should not overbook a plane and bump a customer to get their own people on board, but when someone refuses to leave what other options do you have? Taze him and drag him off? You'll have to use force to remove someone.

What you do when someone refuses to leave their seat?

In the free market, you offer enough money until someone decides that the offer is good enough. Everybody has a price.

In a fascist place, you call the thugs to punch an asian doctor unconscious, so that he can be dragged away from his (paid) seat, so that employees can take their (free) seats