A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off • Hacker News Board

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#121

Post by mastax » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:04 PM UTC

xapata wrote: post #62

manacit wrote: post #6

Someone on a different message board put this situation very well: By the letter of the law, United was correct - morally, they were not. Their 'contract of carriage' allows them to IDB (Involuntary Deny Boarding) to passengers due to overselling, and bump people off at-will. Depending on how delayed the passenger would be to their final destination, they would owe compensation (up to a max of $1350) for the trouble.…

Whoever decided to force the guy off the plane is an idiot. They could have simply raised the comp for volunteering slowly until someone took the money.

According to Reddit hearsay they offered increasing amounts up to $800 but no one budged. One passenger offered to leave for $1500 and the crew laughed. I'm assuming there's corporate policy that puts a maximum cap on compensation.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#122

Post by rdtsc » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:04 PM UTC

joelrunyon wrote: post #15

manacit wrote: post #6

Someone on a different message board put this situation very well: By the letter of the law, United was correct - morally, they were not. Their 'contract of carriage' allows them to IDB (Involuntary Deny Boarding) to passengers due to overselling, and bump people off at-will. Depending on how delayed the passenger would be to their final destination, they would owe compensation (up to a max of $1350) for the trouble.…

Legally - is this considered assault?

It would have to go before a judge. It could be a case of excessive force. Was there something else they could have done rather than end up with him getting knocked out and a bloody nose. As someone else mentioned it would be brought against the policeman in this case (or authority they work for).

United unfortunately is probably legally in the right here. However this is a major fuck up and it will take them a while to clear this black PR mark from their record.

Anyone searching for it will find "United" might find this "Airline drags doctor off the flight because they wanted to fly their employees instead" for years to come. Hopefully it was really worth getting those employees there...

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#123

Post by jwong_ » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

vogt wrote: post #57

josefresco wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The responsible action, is for the business to accept the overbooking as their fault, and arrange alternative traveling plans for their employees. Forcibly removing a customer due to overbooking should never happen, and a customer should be able to refuse. His actions while extreme to some, were reasonable IMHO.

On this note, can someone ELI5 overbooking? Why is it so hard for these companies to just not overbook? Genuinely asking.

It's hard for them because they make much more money overbooking since XX% of people don't show up for their flight. They make money on change fees/no-shows since they sold more tickets.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#124

Post by bluGill » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

vogt wrote: post #57

josefresco wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The responsible action, is for the business to accept the overbooking as their fault, and arrange alternative traveling plans for their employees. Forcibly removing a customer due to overbooking should never happen, and a customer should be able to refuse. His actions while extreme to some, were reasonable IMHO.

On this note, can someone ELI5 overbooking? Why is it so hard for these companies to just not overbook? Genuinely asking.

The airlines know that a small number of people will not make their flight. If they plan the overbooking correctly they can fill the plane with happy passengers, some of whom wouldn't have got a ticket, and make it right for the the people who missed their plane (let them on a different flight that wouldn't be full).

If they sold tickets up to the plane is full, no more: they would have to charge people for missing their flight since the seat left without them. While that might be legal (and moral?) it isn't something people like to happen to them, so the airlines sell just a little over so that they can tell the guy who missed his flight, "sorry, but you can use your ticket on the next flight so you are only out your time."

In short overbooking when it works right is a way to earn some goodwill from people who make a mistake.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#125

Post by btbuildem » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #106

panzagl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did, they went up to $800 and nobody volunteered. They were too cheap to offer any more.

What are they legally required to offer before they can just pick people?

$1350

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#126

Post by jessaustin » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

jackmott wrote: post #33

rhino369 wrote: post #8

The outrage mob is pushing this pretty hard. Booting people off a plane is pretty shitty behavior for an airline. It's bad customer service and they should dealt with it earlier than after boarding. But if they have to do it, the passenger shouldn't be allowed to just refuse. This guy did. And he had to get dragged off the plane. I don't really see an alternative other than just letting anyone willing to scream to st…

>But if they have to do it, the passenger shouldn't be allowed to just refuse. why not? if the passenger in this situation was allowed to just refuse, Delta would have had to get its employees to another location via some other method, or delay/cancel whatever it was they were supposed to do when they go there. why is that a worse universe than this one?

  s/Delta/United/

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#127

Post by DiabloD3 » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

Some versions of this story state the man that was beaten was a doctor (a specialist) that needed to be somewhere to see patients in an emergency situation.

So, yeah, I'd hate to be United's CEO at the moment, this is now too big to sweep under the rug and blindly quote IDB and other such laws.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#128

Post by ErikAugust » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #47

joelrunyon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally - is this considered assault?

No. It's a federal crime to disobey instructions of the flight or the captain. If they ask you to leave the aircraft you're required to leave. If you refuse and need to be physically removed, tough. Not that I'm saying this makes United's behavior acceptable - I have no idea how they managed to load the plane before realizing they needed extra seats - just that the law is, in this case, on their side.

Was the person doing the assaulting federal law enforcement? Was he arrested? I don't think either of these are true. So, I don't think this is how any of this actually works.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#129

Post by maxerickson » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

vwcx wrote: post #101

The real thing to fear here is the normalization of violence. Good perspective in the WP comments: "The truly shocking thing here is that violence - with the real possibility of serious injury - was viewed as appropriate in a situation that was purely logistical. The airline wanted seats for its own employees. This was not an emergency - such as a terrorist attack or a drunk passenger endangering people. The lack of…

Bah!

Our society is less violent today than even recent history and continued reductions are more likely than not.

Which I don't mean we shouldn't be concerned about unnecessary use of force, I mean that it requires very careful measurement to say that violence is being normalized (Rather than rejected).

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#130

Post by 67726e » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

vwcx wrote: post #101

The real thing to fear here is the normalization of violence. Good perspective in the WP comments: "The truly shocking thing here is that violence - with the real possibility of serious injury - was viewed as appropriate in a situation that was purely logistical. The airline wanted seats for its own employees. This was not an emergency - such as a terrorist attack or a drunk passenger endangering people. The lack of…

So what do you do when someone refuses to leave?

I'm on the doctor's side, United should not overbook a plane and bump a customer to get their own people on board, but when someone refuses to leave what other options do you have? Taze him and drag him off? You'll have to use force to remove someone.