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Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

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Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#91
post #61
post #26

It would be surprising and novel if the DoL statisticians had produced an unambiguous correct analysis. They're working in a complex field, and under pressure and regulated to use the wrong tools in many cases---so I'm sure plenty of the people there are excellent and could do great work---DoL statistics in general are not a good basis for action. Example: DoL is required by law to track non-white applicants and hiri…

I think you are constructing a strawman. If rejection statistics were indeed calculated as you describe, it would scale with the number of job seekers crossed with the demographic. I am going to go with DoL statisticians not being idiots.

Strawman or not, the public has a right to the methodology and criteria behind the DoL's claim, without which we are free to disbelieve their allegations without justifying ourselves.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#92

Assuming labor markets are liquid, if the pay gap is true it means either: 1. Women really want to work for Google and take less pay than working at other employers or 2. Women at almost all employers are receiving less money. There were times not too long ago when there were Jewish quotas. Nobelist Physicist Richard Feynman was denied entry into Columbia and he went to MIT instead. Nobelist Medicine & Physiology Aut…

> Those universities/firms that didn't have Jewish quotas and discrimination got a good boost in performance over those who had quotas and discrimination. Counterpoint: a recent study suggested that corporate boards with gender quotas worked better, because it meant they didn't overlook competent female executives in favour of mediocre male ones.

Doesn't that counterpoint still fall prey to the same problem of isolating only a correlated variable? I.e., having qualified female board members could confer a competitive gender advantage, but putting women on the board regardless of their hiring prowess doesn't guarantee similar results.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are fairly paying both genders, wouldn't you necessarily have to take more unproductive and inexperienced female engineers to reach your goal? And if you're fairly paying based on those criteria, won't the female population be paid less as you try to take on a more-than-average number of them? If you are fairly paying both genders, it's fair to assume that women would be paid less statistically. They usually…

> They usually retire from work mid-career for pregnancy and possibly for a much longer time to raise the child… No. Here's how it actually works in a modern family unit in a high-earning, dual-income Silicon Valley household: Mommy takes time off when babby is born, as does daddy because it's not 1960. At some point during this sabbatical help is hired, and then mommy and daddy go back to work and establish their ne…

Sabbaticals also hurt careers. You don't get a raise and a bonus for being away 1 year when you are 25-30.

This affects negatively many future years of income, because your future prospects are affected by your current job.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#94
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but the DOL is absolutely stating things that sound like conclusions, not suspicions: "We found systemic compensation disparities against women pretty much across the entire workforce" That statement obviously depends on numbers they already have, and are not sharing.

No, they DoL is not stating anything like conclusions. Read through the court documents again. > Wipper said the department found pay disparities in a 2015 snapshot of salaries and said officials needed earlier compensation data to evaluate the root of the problem and needed to be able to confidentially interview employees. They found pay disparities in a 2015 snapshot and now want to investigate further.

>No, they DoL is not stating anything like conclusions. Read through the court documents again

I included the direct quote from the DoL that I was referring to when I said it sounded like a conclusion.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#95
There is no such thing as equal pay for equal work. Two people within the same gender aren't paid equal in the Tech or any Professional services Industry forget across genders. More importantly, can someone define what equal work is? Same role/title doesn't translate to equal work. Every person has different capabilities even within in the same role and if it happens to be that a Woman outperforms than her peers then she should be paid equal or more and I wholeheartedly support that but the sad part with Women is that they never talk about such cases but instead Just hangs on to the phrase "Equal pay for Equal work" so they know if they make enough noise they can get equal pay but they never mention a word about equal work. And after working for 10 years in the Industry (which means I am young so don't think I am talking about some B.C era) and statistically speaking most of the time it had always been men who did tasks that are above and beyond from their regular duties.

Sheryl Sandberg Just spits out some none sense. She just got so Lucky to be the COO at FB in the first place. she thinks that if a company can control # years of experience, education level, and blah blah then that will be the deciding factor for Equal pay. I am like really? So two people with same amount of years of experience can perform the same way? Two people with the same education level are equally bright? What if one person went to college Doofus and another went to Stanford? I am sure going to better college doesn't automatically translate into a bright and efficient person for the company but it is an accomplishment one should acknowledge for their hard work. so in short, none of these factors can be controlled and the way most companies Judge pay depends on how well one performs in the Interview which is very much reasonable. If we do the Sheryl Sandberg way we actually don't need an HR department (which Btw, is lot of Women) we can just write a program to accept or reject applicants if is really that straight forward to control the factors she is talking about. I think it would be great if someone can actually make Sheryl Sandberg to code on a daily basis and deal with all the production issues.

I went to an Ivy League school and I worked as a TA for many Computer Science courses. I had worked with many students (both Men and Women) I had seen them getting Jobs at Google and FB and whenever they told me they got into Google or FB I used to ask my students so What questions did they ask you? Typically it is Algorithms most of the time as we all know and I can for sure say that the Algorithms questions asked to Men are way Significantly harder than Women. Now why is this not highlighted? Because companies like Google, FB wants to highlight that they hired Women. I bet my entire savings (I truly mean it) that if I go Google even today and pick random sample of 50 (25 Men Vs 25 Women) and randomly ask the Algorithm questions Men will significantly outperform Women because I know the level of difficulty questions asked for a Women and Men to get into Google. This is totally unfair. And I hate Men for giving up on these issues.

I am sure most companies know all of this. They want to pay equal because they don't want to deal with one more hassle. If I am a CEO of a large organization I will be all over the media asking Women define what Equal work is before they start talking about Equal Pay. And I would look at it case by case If a woman outperforms her peers then As a CEO I would actually pay more period.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you are ok with pay differences based on expert and job function, that's fine.

Nope. The pay differences are often themselves used as a reinforcement of sexism, rather than as a recognition of net contribution. It's one of the mechanisms of systematic discrimination. NB: not commenting on whether this an issue at Google specifically.

How can you show that it's specifically discrimination on gender rather than ability or a function of both?

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#97
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've left the workforce numerous times to go do something interesting (defining the initial parameters of a new human life definitely fall into this category, but that's not the only social construction that can pull women out of the workforce), and it's increased my skill-set every time. Well, these are not the types of leaves we're discussing. Besides this is anecdotal at best. It's not like most "gaps on a CV" l…

It is exactly what I'm discussing. Most gaps on a CV are due to someone going off to do something else interesting, like study, or see the world and meet new types of people, or to deal with some major life challenge or event, all of which I correlate to increased professional utility. If someone can't see or use that, they're a poor manager.

Studying? Major life challenges? Those are not the kinds of gaps that are applicable to this discussion. The gaps the parents alludes to are taking time off working to be with the kids and such. And those are not especially correlated to any "increased professional utility".

And even the ones you mention, with the exception of studing, most of what you described would still be either irrelevant or detrimental to "professional utility". The typical white-upper-middle-class "trip to see the world" is more of a Gen-X/millenial cliche than some eye-opening cultural experience.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#98
post #73
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find the source but I read something recently that said that after controlling for position and experience the pay gap is around 7%. Off the cuff, I find that to match my intuition. If you could hire women engineers for 80% of the equivalent man, then all companies would wan't to hire every other companies women at 90% of equivalent because they would still be getting a deal and the women would get a big pay…

> If you could hire women engineers for 80% of the equivalent man, then all companies would wan't to hire every other companies women at 90% of equivalent because they would still be getting a deal and the women would get a big pay bump. This is not happening. Of course it's not happening, because according to your own response, people of both genders who have less experience get paid less. People get paid in accorda…

People get paid in accordance with their cultural presentation, their self-confidence, their political skills, and their ability to display tempered aggression when valuing themselves and seeking pay rises.

There's some correlation with experience, but experience is often not the primary determinant of pay.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#99
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard that much (not all) of the aggregate gap (i.e., on the national level) goes away after controlling for those variables. The question you may ask here however is: Does it matter? I mean I agree that it matters from "getting the facts straight", but maybe not necessarily from the conclusions. If the pay gap is due to less experience, less education etc., then you're seeing effects of earlier discrimination…

> If the pay gap is due to less experience, less education etc., then you're seeing effects of earlier discrimination in society. No, it can also be due to interests/innate biological differences. Women firefighters/professional athletes would be paid less than males, all other things considered, because women generally have less strength and athletic ability than men do.

By that logic women teachers and nurses should be paid more than men, because they're better with kids and with being caring.

Perhaps there's a problem with this kind of generalisation. Can you see what it is?

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#100
post #9

Until the government releases their methodology it is hard to know how factual this assessment is. Google has done a lot of work internally to even up the gap and claims that they have achieved parity. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/07/google-pa... Either party could squelch the un-informed debate by releasing the data and the methods used to arrive at their conclusions.

DoL is suing Google to access for data in order to complete their evaluation of a pay gap. DoL suspects a pay disparity. It needs more data to come to a definition conclusion for which it asked Google and was denied access. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14067113

Don't you think the headline is a bit premature then?
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