Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#51

Post by denzil_correa » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:42 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #9

Until the government releases their methodology it is hard to know how factual this assessment is. Google has done a lot of work internally to even up the gap and claims that they have achieved parity. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/07/google-pa... Either party could squelch the un-informed debate by releasing the data and the methods used to arrive at their conclusions.

DoL is suing Google to access for data in order to complete their evaluation of a pay gap. DoL suspects a pay disparity. It needs more data to come to a definition conclusion for which it asked Google and was denied access.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14067113

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#52

Post by jimmywanger » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:43 PM UTC

hannob wrote: post #40

m52go wrote: post #3

I can't read the whole article, but does it (or DOL documents) include details like amount of experience and job function? I've heard that much (not all) of the aggregate gap (i.e., on the national level) goes away after controlling for those variables. Curious if that applies here, and if so, to what degree. Edit: consider recent headlines promoting outrage at Marissa Mayer's successor earning double her salary beca…

> I've heard that much (not all) of the aggregate gap (i.e., on the national level) goes away after controlling for those variables. The question you may ask here however is: Does it matter? I mean I agree that it matters from "getting the facts straight", but maybe not necessarily from the conclusions. If the pay gap is due to less experience, less education etc., then you're seeing effects of earlier discrimination…

> If the pay gap is due to less experience, less education etc., then you're seeing effects of earlier discrimination in society.

No, it can also be due to interests/innate biological differences. Women firefighters/professional athletes would be paid less than males, all other things considered, because women generally have less strength and athletic ability than men do.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#53

Post by Majestic121 » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:43 PM UTC

freddyc wrote: post #29

yomly wrote: post #22

It is hard to discern what is going on, and it feels strange to say I trust Google ahead of the government. Google is full of engineers who prize logic and fairness above most else, and culturally most the engineers I meet in most places espouse gender parity and equality. In light of this, it is hard to believe Google would not find a way to even up payscales. That said, while non-management says one thing it is oft…

While I generally agree with your main point, I have witnessed engineers who espouse equality publicly until their own remuneration is the topic of discussion, at which point self-interest kicks in and "of course I should earn more than A, because x, y, z ..." becomes the private narrative. While a lot of progress has been made in reducing the gender wage gap in tech, we still have a long way to go.

Of course everyone tries to have the best salary possible, the same is expected for both men and women and that's a good thing.

I mean, even if I'm willing to get a hit on my salary in the name of gender equality, I'm pretty sure the money will go in upper management's pocket and not my female counterparts.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#54

Post by tyingq » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:44 PM UTC

denzil_correa wrote: post #46

tyingq wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an odd situation. The government isn't giving out any numbers, but they are saying things like: "The government’s analysis at this point indicates that discrimination against women in Google is quite extreme, even in this industry." Pretty strong language when you aren't yet willing to back it up. Google's replies are equally strong in the other direction: "Every year, we do a comprehensive and robust analysis o…

The government can't give out numbers when Google is denying them access to the records. I've written the details in another comment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14067113

If they have no numbers, how did they reach the conclusion they state above?

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#55

Post by denzil_correa » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:44 PM UTC

yomly wrote: post #22

It is hard to discern what is going on, and it feels strange to say I trust Google ahead of the government. Google is full of engineers who prize logic and fairness above most else, and culturally most the engineers I meet in most places espouse gender parity and equality. In light of this, it is hard to believe Google would not find a way to even up payscales. That said, while non-management says one thing it is oft…

> It is hard to discern what is going on

DoL suspects pay disparities and asks for more data from Google to see if their suspicion is true or false. Google refuses access to the data. DoL takes Google to court for access to data.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#56

Post by denzil_correa » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:46 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #54

denzil_correa wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government can't give out numbers when Google is denying them access to the records. I've written the details in another comment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14067113

If they have no numbers, how did they reach the conclusion they state above?

DoL has NOT reached any conclusion. DoL has a suspicion based on 2015 snapshot of salaries. They want to understand why there's a disparity. It may or may not be due to a gender wage gap but for that conclusion to be reached you need to have access to data they have requested from Google.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#57

Post by jimmywanger » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:46 PM UTC

freddyc wrote: post #29

yomly wrote: post #22

It is hard to discern what is going on, and it feels strange to say I trust Google ahead of the government. Google is full of engineers who prize logic and fairness above most else, and culturally most the engineers I meet in most places espouse gender parity and equality. In light of this, it is hard to believe Google would not find a way to even up payscales. That said, while non-management says one thing it is oft…

While I generally agree with your main point, I have witnessed engineers who espouse equality publicly until their own remuneration is the topic of discussion, at which point self-interest kicks in and "of course I should earn more than A, because x, y, z ..." becomes the private narrative. While a lot of progress has been made in reducing the gender wage gap in tech, we still have a long way to go.

> "of course I should earn more than A, because x, y, z ..."

Unless "x, y, and z" include "because I'm a man and she's a woman" then I don't really understand your point. Of course most employees think they're underpaid, and they can all come up with reasons, due to performance on the job, specific incidents, experience, and level of education why they should be paid more.

How is that related at all to gender wage gap in any industry, let alone tech specifically?

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#58

Post by jimmywanger » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:47 PM UTC

denzil_correa wrote: post #44

The US Dept. of Labor is suing Google for not revealing compensation data [0]. The Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP) has suspicion on pay disparities and in order to investigate further sent a request to Google to access some records (Point 9) [1]. Google denied OFCCP access to these records. Now, DoL has taken Google to court to get access to the records they need to investigate further and comp…

> I wonder why Google is being so evasive about it.

The article says that Google thinks the DOL is going on a fishing expedition. They turned over records, but like most private companies, don't like turning over records for no reason, especially about highly confidential information such as compensation packages.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#59

Post by jerf » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:47 PM UTC

nojvek wrote: post #36

yomly wrote: post #22

It is hard to discern what is going on, and it feels strange to say I trust Google ahead of the government. Google is full of engineers who prize logic and fairness above most else, and culturally most the engineers I meet in most places espouse gender parity and equality. In light of this, it is hard to believe Google would not find a way to even up payscales. That said, while non-management says one thing it is oft…

I agree. Google is one of the companies with the other big cos that take diversity and pay gaps very seriously. This is a very bold claim by DOL and Wsj publishing it just for eye balls says a lot about our government and journalists nowadays. "Make outrageous stories for readers so they click ads"

Google is in the core of Silicon Valley, extremely liberal, socially conscious, etc. etc., pretty much from top to bottom. To be honest, if the government were correct here my reaction to this news isn't a renewed belief in the need to do better... my reaction is that if even Google, hypothetically (since I'm not assuming that Google is necessarily wrong), couldn't manage to have equal pay, with all of its immense resources, its obvious desire to handle this correctly for all kinds of reasons, and with all of the money that is metaphorically sloshing down every hallway for them, it's time to just pack it in and give up on the idea of doing any better than Google. (Note that doesn't mean everybody else is "done", but that they shouldn't be expected to do any better than Google.) That would imply to me and probably most people that apparently this problem is just unsolvable past this point; what is anyone else who isn't as abundantly resourced as Google supposed to do that Google isn't already doing?

I'm actually inclined to believe Google on this one moreso than a government, because as much as for any other company in the world they have the resources to create a reasonable definition of parity and then not particularly blink to achieve that parity by simply paying certain people more, with no other compromises needed. (Most companies would need some sort of compromise to use that plan, because one way or another the books need to balance.)

(And please do me the favor of reading this message carefully again if you're really enraged by it and want to just smash the downvote button... if that's your reaction you may need to double-check your reading.)

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#60

Post by denzil_correa » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:50 PM UTC

jimmywanger wrote: post #58

denzil_correa wrote: post #44

The US Dept. of Labor is suing Google for not revealing compensation data [0]. The Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP) has suspicion on pay disparities and in order to investigate further sent a request to Google to access some records (Point 9) [1]. Google denied OFCCP access to these records. Now, DoL has taken Google to court to get access to the records they need to investigate further and comp…

> I wonder why Google is being so evasive about it. The article says that Google thinks the DOL is going on a fishing expedition. They turned over records, but like most private companies, don't like turning over records for no reason, especially about highly confidential information such as compensation packages.

> The article says that Google thinks the DOL is going on a fishing expedition.

That's because the system is designed in such a way. The DoL can't make a case without access to meaningful data. So, if the system is designed to make access difficult this is what we end up with.

> They turned over records

They did not turn over records - that's what the entire lawsuit is about as mentioned in the court documents.