New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary • Hacker News Board

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#371

Post by sqeaky » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 7:16 PM UTC

j2bax wrote: post #327

krenden9 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet you refuse to see that pricing information will cause additional bias on your part. This is why I chose to have my former employers give a different salary figure. If I had told my prospective, new employer I had been making $40k/year, I doubt they would have taken me seriously, and even possibly ended recruitment. "He only makes $40k! He must be bad or stupid!" I don't consider myself bad or stupid, I'm just n…

Or you could simply say, "I prefer not to disclose that information". If a potential employer continues to push you to make the first offer, you can dodge the bullet and walk away with your integrity intact. Personally, I never ask a candidate what they previously made. I do occasionally ask what their salary expectations are, but only when someone has applied that I perceive as far overqualified for the position the…

I find it so weird to see a lone person here defending integrity. Capitalism, the kind that enables startup culture, is built on trust. Starting an employment relationship with a lie is not good way to build trust.

I don't think employers should ask this, and they do employees should hold it against them. Employees shouldn't disclose it unless they want too. Anyone lying about this or anything else in the all too brief hiring process should be enough of a red flag to make the other party consider leaving.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#372

Post by pc86 » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 7:18 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #62

nommm-nommm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful!! There's quite a few ways to verify past salary. Specially some employers report employment information to private databases and your potential employer runs a "employment report," like banks run a credit report, as part of a mandatory background check. To see if you lied. Of course, they can't do that without your permission but agreeing to a background check is a condition of employment. The database i am…

That's why you just say "around" and add 20% to your current salary. And even if a company does find out, who cares? What I made at a prior job has zero bearing on my next job. If the new company thinks I bring in enough value to be paid X, then they paying X should be fine.

Our internal recruiters ask but it's not a deal breaker if someone doesn't answer. You know what is a deal breaker? Lying.

I've personally seen two offers rescinded after it came out that someone added an egregious amount of money to their previous salary (one to the effect of made approx $100k, said they made $185 and took $175 while complaining loudly about their "pay cut").

What sucks for them is:

A) Everyone involved in that process knows they're a liar.

B) They were now unemployed because this was during the post-acceptance background checks

C) They won't be able to work at any company anyone from A is doing hiring stuff for

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#373

Post by crazy1van » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 7:18 PM UTC

Laws like this one that restrict businesses from asking questions that individuals could ask strikes me as very strange.

I could ask my buddy how much he made at his last job.

I couldn't ask my buddy how much he made at his last job if I'm considering hiring him to work at my company.

Why is this information legal to acquire when I'm wearing my business hat vs when I'm wearing my friend hat?

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#374

Post by lend000 » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 7:19 PM UTC

ramblenode wrote: post #344

lend000 wrote: post #184

There's a case to be made for an employee protection preventing an employer from firing an employee for refusing to produce pay stubs from a past employer. However, I've said it before -- preventing a question from being asked is state overreach and constitutes a violation of the first amendment, in my opinion.

> preventing a question from being asked is state overreach and constitutes a violation of the first amendment, in my opinion. IANAL, but asking about salary as part of an interview seems likely to fall under commercial speech. > Commercial speech, such as advertisments, has been ruled by the Supreme Court to be entitled to less protection under the First Amendment than noncommerical speech. [0] [0] https://www.law.c…

Commercial speech clauses do not apply to everything a business (or person engaged in business) does or says -- certainly not private employment negotiations where it's unclear which party would be the 'customer' and which the commercial seller.

From your link, I think it makes it clear that the commercial speech distinction is almost exclusively used for advertising.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#375

Post by Pyxl101 » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 7:19 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #161

pmoriarty wrote: post #43

I never answer questions about my past or expected salary, not to employers and not to recruiters. Most employers don't ask, and the few that have (perhaps by having a part of an employment form ask for previous salary) have never made my leaving that information out an issue. Most recruiters, if they even ask, respect my decision not to talk about it, but I've been pressed hard on this by a handful of recruiters, an…

I've had a handful of potential employers ask straight up for my current salary, and they ALL got squirrely when I refused to disclose it. Currently batting zero with companies that ask for (and I politely decline to give) that info. EDIT: Also I kind of disagree with your assessment that it's a "seller's market" for IT talent. A lot of companies appear to be fishing for good deals, but is there really that much actu…

I'd recommend reading Patrick McKenzie's (patio11's) article on salary negotiation for engineers: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

Yes, they may all get squirrelly when you refuse to give that information, but this is often simply a tactic to pressure you into giving the information up. Stick to your guns.

One tactic I would recommend is to say, "I'd prefer not to discuss previous comp or comp expectations at this stage. I'd first like to get to know the company and learn about the opportunities for me there. If we decide that we're a mutual fit, then we can figure out the comp. I can be flexible on the comp, and it's only one factor I'll consider alongside others like how passionate I am for the project, my team, and the company mission, and the opportunities I see for further personal growth."

Your objective at this phase is to get past recruiting and into the interview process with potential fellow employees and hiring managers. Once there, if you do well and are a good fit, then they will start pulling for you. The force that a hiring manager brings to bear on that outcome is much greater than recruiting, and if the HM thinks you're awesome and wants to hire you, then the fact that you haven't given previous comp or expected comp to recruiting probably won't matter.

Recruiting may respond to this tactic by asking, "OK, let's say we match you with a completely ideal job, project, team, etc. What would your expected compensation be in that best-case scenario?" This question is a trick designed to get you to reveal your lowest comp number, i.e., the lowest compensation you'd accept if all the other aspects of the job were awesome and made up for it.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#376

Post by louisswiss » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 7:27 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #298

louisswiss wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with you in principle (your previous deal with company A is absolutely none of company B's business) but I would like to challenge you on one point: > I'm placed at a disadvantage in negotiations if I name a number first. ... This is unlikely to be true. Generally, in price negotiations it is advantageous to name a number first. This is known as anchoring and basically the theory is that the end result is bette…

I think you're confusing two sales concepts - first to talk, and anchoring. Anchoring is a more general marketing concept that works well in advertisements (crossing out a black $280 and putting a red $100 underneath it). Anchoring doesn't work so well for something much more fluid (and with much more at stake) such as a salary negotiation. In-person sales meetings (which is what an interview is, for both sides) are…

I'm not confusing two sales concepts - you are. I don't know much about 'first to talk', but my limited understanding is that it means just that (the person who engages first in a negotiation comes out worse). Anchoring is about setting the parameters of the negotiation - you don't need to speak first.

>>In negotiations, anchoring refers to the concept of setting a boundary that outlines the basic constraints for a negotiation; subsequently, the anchoring effect is the phenomenon in which we set our estimation for the true value of the item at hand.[5] In addition to the initial research conducted by Tversky and Kahneman, multiple other studies have shown that anchoring can greatly influence the estimated value of an object. [0]

Do you or your Roman generals (who probably wouldn't be fighting each other anyway, but that's besides the point) have any hard data/sources you can show that demonstrate a link between anchoring and coming off worse in a negotiation?

You can hurt yourself by giving a number, but you're more likely to help yourself if you choose a realistic but slightly high number and indicate that you are willing to negotiate based on non-monetary factors.

[0] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring#In_negotiations

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#377

Post by throwaway91111 » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 7:27 PM UTC

louisswiss wrote: post #82

pmoriarty wrote: post #43

I never answer questions about my past or expected salary, not to employers and not to recruiters. Most employers don't ask, and the few that have (perhaps by having a part of an employment form ask for previous salary) have never made my leaving that information out an issue. Most recruiters, if they even ask, respect my decision not to talk about it, but I've been pressed hard on this by a handful of recruiters, an…

Agree with you in principle (your previous deal with company A is absolutely none of company B's business) but I would like to challenge you on one point: > I'm placed at a disadvantage in negotiations if I name a number first. ... This is unlikely to be true. Generally, in price negotiations it is advantageous to name a number first. This is known as anchoring and basically the theory is that the end result is bette…

That isn't banned by this law, though.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#378

Post by sqeaky » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 7:28 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #71

So people on HN are pro employers posting their employee salaries publicly but against previous companies asking what their salaries are. WTF. I must be missing something here. I personally believe your salary is your business. Period. Getting salary information bad, forcing employees to divulge salaries from a position of power is disgusting. Here is me being publicly quartered on HN for pushing back on forcing empl…

> So people on HN are pro employers posting their employee salaries publicly but against previous companies asking what their salaries are. WTF.

You are treating a heterogeneous group as though it were a homogeneous individual. I hope Individuals strive to avoid hypocrisy, while groups almost mandate its existence. Consider how easy it is to attack any political party because of their superficially contradictory beliefs.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#379

Post by maxxxxx » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 7:31 PM UTC

mdb333 wrote: post #309

maxxxxx wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see my past salaries as trade secret of my business. So it's good that I can protect this secret.

...yeah but imagine you're trying to hire a contractor to do some job. Of course you're going to ask, "how much does it cost?" Generally you will shop this job around to get an idea of the range of prices for similar work from qualified contractors and then make an informed decision. If you go at it the opposite, "I'm willing to pay X for this job Y" then you've skewed your capability to make an informed decision unl…

They are asking for past salaries not the salary an employee wants for this particular job. You aren't demanding a full list of past work and its price from a contractor either.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#380

Post by pmoriarty » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

clavalle wrote: post #350

komali2 wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is, is every potential employee worth the same to you?

Of course not. But every role has a range, more or less, which is a balance of the value that role creates vs the alternatives in the market. The range is due to factors such as the risk an individual embodies based on previous experience, demonstrable skill, references along with likely ramp up time based on those factors. To take a silly but illustrative example: if I'm looking for a javascript developer, I don't c…

When you tell employees your number so as not to waste time, do you name the number at the top of the range or at the bottom?