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Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and Convergence

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Re: Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and Convergence

#431

Post by nickpsecurity »

pcr0 wrote: post #347
nickpsecurity wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's even worse than the already-terrible market for FOSS phones. You get something that will have Linux or some standard API but probably disappear eventually. Then add the aggravation of having to change your stack constantly. Yeah, I'd pass on it unless it stabilizes into a standard stack. Preferably not dependent on Microsoft or Oracle tech either to reduce patent/copyright risk a bit.

Oracle aside, .NET core is open source and I don't see today's Microsoft pulling the same crap as Oracle did with Google.

What about tomorrow's? Copyright's, patents, and software last a long time. Better to know you aren't dependent on a malicious party who can turn against you any time.

Re: Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and Convergence

#432

Post by nickpsecurity »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #357
nickpsecurity wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's even worse than the already-terrible market for FOSS phones. You get something that will have Linux or some standard API but probably disappear eventually. Then add the aggravation of having to change your stack constantly. Yeah, I'd pass on it unless it stabilizes into a standard stack. Preferably not dependent on Microsoft or Oracle tech either to reduce patent/copyright risk a bit.

In today's market, I think Microsoft would rather give a competitor a royalty free permanent license to all their patents than let Google continue to just own the industry. Mobile is only one of the many markets they compete in, but Google is using their mobile dominance to help lead and push their expansion elsewhere. Microsoft needs a new mobile OS option out there, even if it isn't theirs.

Microsoft makes several hundred million to billion on Android royalties alone. They did that with either actual lawsuits or the threat of them. I don't remember what it was in the start but do know they suck a fortune out of Android vendors (esp Samsung) while they did everything they could to put it out of business with Windows Phone. Nothing contributed, but billions taken via patent claims.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2015/11/01/microsoft...

Re: Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and Convergence

#433

Post by tradesmanhelix »

remir wrote: post #291
tradesmanhelix wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shotgun approach that both FirefoxOS and Ubuntu Phone took saddens me - I think they could have done very well had they focused on acquiring power/niche users instead of trying to be a mass-market consumer product from the get-go. When the iPhone first launched, it wasn't adopted by everyone. I remember when, in ~2009, I and a few friends were the only ones I knew who had an iPhone. It wasn't until around 2011 th…

Building something lasting takes resources. Canonical simply had no chance. Even Microsoft, despite their aquisition of Nokia, their marketing budget, their massive dev resources, is failing on mobile. They even have their own convergence feature and it's not enough to attrack customers.

If, "Canonical simply had no chance", then does that mean we're stuck with iOS and Android period? And no other mobile OS has a shot? If you believe that, then you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I feel like that's not the type of hacker mindset that moves the world forward.

I'm optimistic because I've never seen one of these 3rd option OSes take the approach mentioned in the Crossing the Chasm book linked in my earlier post - they all went straight to mass market vs. targeting a niche, dominating, and then using that beachhead to expand into other markets. If someone makes a legit or mostly-legit FLOSS mobile device, targets it at the appropriate audience, and slowly and patiently nurtures an ecosystem, I think a 3rd option can succeed.

Re: Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and Convergence

#434

Post by tradesmanhelix »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #367
tradesmanhelix wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I can understand how that's confusing. I meant to convey two things: 1. I mean to imply that it was a waste - they created a bunch of controversy, and for what? If they were not committed to Unity for the long-haul, they should never had made the switch away from Gnome in the first place. 2. In the intervening years since 2010, a ton of people have come to use Unity and gotten used to it instead of Gnome, and n…

>"I mean to imply that it was a waste - they created a bunch of controversy, and for what? If they were not committed to Unity for the long-haul, they should never had made the switch away from Gnome in the first place." So in general if someone recognises they've made a mistake, they should continue on making that same mistake regardless? >"In the intervening years since 2010, a ton of people have come to use Unity…

> So in general if someone recognises they've made a mistake, they should continue on making that same mistake regardless?

Doesn't sound to me like Canonical is admitting a mistake. Quote from OP:

"This has been, personally, a very difficult decision, because of the force of my conviction in the convergence future, and my personal engagement with the people and the product, both of which are amazing." (emphasis added)

My point is that Canonical's behavior, both in 2010 and now, is bad corporate citizenship. They're showing very little regard for their users and their community.

> If enough people want it, Unity can continue to exist as a community-led project, just like how GNOME 2 got saved by MATE.

Honestly, I hope that doesn't happen. If convergence and Ubuntu Phone aren't happening, I'd rather see the resources go into other DEs that already have a strong community like KDE, GNOME, or MATE.

Re: Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and Convergence

#435

Post by jvolkman »

pawadu wrote: post #403
xtracto wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the same behaviour as OSX. At first I also hated this behaviour, coming form the Linux/Window environment. But after using it in conjunction with ALT+` (to cycle through app's Windows) I actually find it better than the standard Windows behaviour.

I am with unethical_ban on this. Most of the time I am switching between multiple instances of the same app and this drives me crazy. Just because OSX does it (I don't think windows 10 does this) it doesn't mean it is a good idea.

So use alt+`, which allows you to switch between multiple windows from the same app without the clutter of other apps.

Re: Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and Convergence

#436

Post by ASalazarMX »

daveguy wrote: post #225
gshulegaard wrote: post #57

I may be a minority, but I am very saddened by this. Not because I have any particular love for Unity, but rather I share Mark's conviction that convergence is the future. Love or hate it but Unity was IMO the best shot we had at getting an open source unified phone, tablet and desktop experience...and now this is effectively Canonical not only shutting down Unity, but refocusing efforts away from convergence and tow…

data convergence is the future, not interface convergence . I think they made a serious mistake conflating the two. You should be able to shift your view of a document from a desktop to a laptop, but that doesn't mean the fundamental interface from one should be shoe-horned into the other. That could mean a phone that is docked, but when you have 10x the screen real estate, a keyboard and a mouse the interface should…

And maybe multiple non-touch monitors, where the comfortable mobile interface feels cartoonish.

Re: Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and Convergence

#437

Post by xentronium »

jimmies wrote: post #241
GraemeLion wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://vizzzion.org/blog/2016/10/plasmas-road-ahead/ Global Menu being implemented in KDE 5.9.

I don't mind the principles of it -- and I don't mind it in macOS. At least the menu is always there, the problem with unity is that it is hidden and will slowly appear when you hover the mouse on top. It's really hard to aim for what I want when I actually have to access a function on the menu. I am using KDE on anything I can, and I have no problem with them doing things like the global menu. KDE tends to get thing…

There is a setting for menu being always on.

Re: Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and Convergence

#438

Post by javajosh »

WorldMaker wrote: post #259
javajosh wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Application convergence already happens via the browser; this takes much wind out of the sails of OS convergence. However, it also means that browser focused OSes, ChromeBook and FireFoxOS, will probably be the ones to win, in the end.

Or WebView-based cross-platform toolkits will win, in the end. (Electron, Cordova, React Native) Given FirefoxOS is also retired and ChromeOS seems to be in the process of being replaced by or merged with Android, I figure the cross-platform toolkits are more likely to win than the browser OSes.

If "winning" means "same operating system on all devices" then I don't think Electron, etc are competing in that contest. ChromeOS (which I understand to roughly consist of a Linux kernel and Chrome, and not much more) is by far the closest in concept.

Imagine, a process per browser tab for all the things! Why should this not be the case? It would be a revolutionary improvement in process visibility, in general. moreover I don't see why there would be any limitations over what you get with ps and dtrace.

Indeed, I suspect there is a quite nice visualization of the kernel itself that would fit nicely in a browser tab. Maybe not a real-time picture, but surely you could do simple simulations at the very least, and perhaps set configuration options if you wanted to change your own kernel.

Re: Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and Convergence

#439

Post by leppr »

madprops wrote: post #420
jeremyjh wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think KDE Plasma 5 is really quite good. I switched to it from Unity when I switched to Arch last year. I don't ask for much from a desktop system, but I like how easy it is to customize KDE. I don't think it tries to be OS X at all - seems like a slightly more tasteful Win 7 to me; though I see that in Gnome.

Yeah, to be honest I think Ubuntu should've picked KDE. It's a more direct competitor to Windows 10 which is in my view the best desktop OS. Gnome 3 is nice, just had it installed a couple of days ago. But some things are unpolished, some don't make sense. GTK open dialogs don't even have proper image previews which has been a feature requests for a lot of years (something KDE does have).

Coming from a heavy KDE user (on 3 different laptops, a Dell Latitude, a Thinkpad X220 and an MSI): the number of little bugs and glitches in that DE is wayy too high for it to be adopted by the leading desktop distribution.

It makes much more sense for them take a better base to start with, and then rally developer effort to make it more customizable/productive, than take a project with a huge featureset but very fragile and unstable.

Re: Growing Ubuntu for Cloud and IoT, Rather Than Phone and Convergence

#440

Post by zanny »

scribu wrote: post #408
zanny wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably why they tried the Edge campaign 4 years ago. They weren't getting anywhere with vendors then, and weren't now, so they eventually had to give up. It should be a bit concerning how uncompetitive the market is that you really cannot even try to launch a mobile OS of your own as a product, since you are beholden to telecom operators and handset manufacturers on both ends, all of whom have government gr…

I agree that it sucks there is so little competition in the mobile OS space, but I don't think government involvement is enough to explain this situation. Take Microsoft - it became a handset manufacturer and is still struggling to make Windows Phone a winner.

That is exactly why government involvement is such an issue. Microsoft could throw around insane sums of money with its mobile aspirations - and has - while at the same time most users of it say it was the best of the major offerings, they had no success.

That was because Microsoft could have all the money in the world, but couldn't operate a cell network out of thin air that would promote their devices. They also had limited access to hardware - they had to outright buy Nokia to even get minor device manufacturer access, and even then few companies ever offered Windows Phone devices despite Microsoft throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at it.

When Microsoft cannot make inroads - a company that outright buys entire business sectors to own competition - its disastrous.

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