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Verizon wants a piece of Google's ad business

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Re: Verizon wants a piece of Google's ad business

#21

Post by joshuamorton »

rayiner wrote: post #16
awalton wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe someone can help me understand the distinction between these two. Verizon is the pipe we move data over - it's the road. "Google" is the service at the other end of the pipe - it's our destination. Verizon is unhappy with being the pipe, despite that literally being the business they signed up to be in. They have decided that the destinations make more money than they can ever squeeze out of being the road se…

But Google isn't the destination. Google's top services (search and YouTube) are just means for finding and getting to what we really want, which is the content (website, video, etc.).

Would you say the same thing about Netflix? It is just a means for finding and getting content, much of which is made by external entities.

Re: Verizon wants a piece of Google's ad business

#22

Post by [deleted] »

franciscop wrote: post #6

In my opinion this is the problem of monopoly. US ISP don't have to compete among themselves to offer a better service as I learned recently. You/they get one ISP per area with no option to use a different one. Then they become huge and start to compete for other things, which in this case is the content. This turns out is bad for: - the user for getting subpar Internet access with a fixed conditions and no option. -…

[deleted]

Re: Verizon wants a piece of Google's ad business

#23

Post by [deleted] »

ant6n wrote: post #20
toomuchtodo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Still going to stare blankly and refuse to see the problem? The problem isn't Verizon; the problem is voters who allow their representatives to remain in office without passing legislation to fix this. Don't blame corporations for working within the system they're presented. Blame an apathetic voter base.

So companies cannot be responsible for anything, it's the laws! Oh and of course the law makers aren't responsible for anything, it's the voters! Very convenient, especially given how the dysfunctional US electoral system means voting for change isn't possible.

[deleted]

Re: Verizon wants a piece of Google's ad business

#24

Post by blitmap »

newsat13 wrote: post #4

We all hate ads, no doubt about it. But I don't like the way media is going about accusing Comcast and Verizon for what the consumers brought upon themselves. Comcast/Verizon simply want exactly what Google does. AFAIK, Google does not "prompt" me saying that they mine my data and use it to show ads. In fact, I just tried creating a gmail account and there is no such explicit popup dialog that tell me this informatio…

You make a decent point, but it's like saying "we need these protections codified in our laws, get to work lawmakers!" while resigning ourselves to months or even years of abuse by these corporations. The problem is, an ISP can do far more abuse from their opportune position - rather than Facebook's. We cannot protect ourselves well enough from an ISP like we can by simply not using Facebook. A VPN is a great aid to privacy but severely limits the usefulness of the broadband speeds we paid for in the first place. And the vast majority of us cannot find new service from another ISP who cares about our concerns.

Once again the consumer loses.

Re: Verizon wants a piece of Google's ad business

#25

Post by newsat13 »

awalton wrote: post #12
newsat13 wrote: post #4

We all hate ads, no doubt about it. But I don't like the way media is going about accusing Comcast and Verizon for what the consumers brought upon themselves. Comcast/Verizon simply want exactly what Google does. AFAIK, Google does not "prompt" me saying that they mine my data and use it to show ads. In fact, I just tried creating a gmail account and there is no such explicit popup dialog that tell me this informatio…

> Maybe someone can help me understand the distinction between these two. Verizon is the pipe we move data over - it's the road. "Google" is the service at the other end of the pipe - it's our destination. Verizon is unhappy with being the pipe, despite that literally being the business they signed up to be in. They have decided that the destinations make more money than they can ever squeeze out of being the road se…

Google also started as a search engine to help me find my way to my real destination. Instead it has snuck in and started tracking where I am going, what I am doing there, why I am there and what not. If Google is allowed to change business models radically (and very profitably), why not Verizon.

To be clear, I am just pointing out that singling out Verizon/Comcast does not get to the root of the problem. We need blanket laws that cover all companies that mine user data for profit. If there are no laws, well then everybody should be allowed to do whatever they want. Why give this privilege to Google (who also give an unrelated service).

Re: Verizon wants a piece of Google's ad business

#26

Post by oh_sigh »

rayiner wrote: post #16
awalton wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe someone can help me understand the distinction between these two. Verizon is the pipe we move data over - it's the road. "Google" is the service at the other end of the pipe - it's our destination. Verizon is unhappy with being the pipe, despite that literally being the business they signed up to be in. They have decided that the destinations make more money than they can ever squeeze out of being the road se…

But Google isn't the destination. Google's top services (search and YouTube) are just means for finding and getting to what we really want, which is the content (website, video, etc.).

Ok, so google is the map maker, Verizon is the road, and whatever website/information the user really wants is the physical location. It is still understandable that there can be bigger margins in map making than there is in laying asphalt.

Re: Verizon wants a piece of Google's ad business

#27

Post by awalton »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #15
awalton wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe someone can help me understand the distinction between these two. Verizon is the pipe we move data over - it's the road. "Google" is the service at the other end of the pipe - it's our destination. Verizon is unhappy with being the pipe, despite that literally being the business they signed up to be in. They have decided that the destinations make more money than they can ever squeeze out of being the road se…

> Still going to stare blankly and refuse to see the problem? The problem isn't Verizon; the problem is voters who allow their representatives to remain in office without passing legislation to fix this. Don't blame corporations for working within the system they're presented. Blame an apathetic voter base.

> Don't blame corporations for working within the system they're presented. Blame an apathetic voter base.

I can blame both. Ethical companies will not abuse a bad law, nor will they pay millions to lobby to break laws, or use the Citizen's United ruling to pour money into electing people who will pass laws they want. It's hard to even see how it is possible to vote against them now that they've got billions of dollars to make any decision they see fit law, simply by squeezing the arm of whichever tool they installed in the legislator. But maybe we should blame the Supreme Court - if only that too wasn't gamed by politicians baselessly denying the nomination of first Garland and now Gorsuch as retaliation.

Corruption is corruption, whether it is political or commercial.

Re: Verizon wants a piece of Google's ad business

#28

Post by pixl97 »

rayiner wrote: post #16
awalton wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe someone can help me understand the distinction between these two. Verizon is the pipe we move data over - it's the road. "Google" is the service at the other end of the pipe - it's our destination. Verizon is unhappy with being the pipe, despite that literally being the business they signed up to be in. They have decided that the destinations make more money than they can ever squeeze out of being the road se…

But Google isn't the destination. Google's top services (search and YouTube) are just means for finding and getting to what we really want, which is the content (website, video, etc.).

Eh, Youtube is a Google destination. Lots of people make content for the express purpose of distribution on Youtube. Those people could put the content on other services, but they would likely have lower viewership. So, I'd say you're wrong on that. Google is the destination.

About search. You don't have to use it. You could go straight to the content producers website if you wanted. Chances are nobody would ever find that content. As a means to fund the search, Google presents ads.

Your ISP is another matter. You pay the ISP for the pipe. The ISP also lobbies your local municipality for monopoly service. They also want to sample your pipe and sell your data that you are paying them to carry for you.

Everything needs to go encrypted. From DNS, all email to all webpages. All the ISP deserves is a bunch of random characters.

Re: Verizon wants a piece of Google's ad business

#29

Post by oh_sigh »

newsat13 wrote: post #13
Godel_unicode wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google doesn't have a natural monopoly in most of the country, and the ISPs do. Couple that with no ISP equivalent of ctrl+shift+n, and there you are (VPNs are just replacing one ISP with another).

Anonymous mode is really just a placebo. All it does it keep your browser history clean. Don't be fooled that Google does not know it's you. Google can easily track you using the IP address. This is really as simple as I saw this dude login with this IP. Now I see the same IP but don't see a session cookie. I can say pretty much for sure that it's that dude in anonymous mode. Note that bing already does this kind of…

IPs change over time(sometimes extremely quickly), and multiple people, including thousands of individuals, can share a single IP address. Maybe companies use IP as some kind of signal(I have no idea), but it isn't a very precise signal.

I do notice that creepy stalker-style ads about specific products I recently searched for no longer pop up when I browse in anonymous mode.

Re: Verizon wants a piece of Google's ad business

#30

Post by toomuchtodo »

awalton wrote: post #27
toomuchtodo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Still going to stare blankly and refuse to see the problem? The problem isn't Verizon; the problem is voters who allow their representatives to remain in office without passing legislation to fix this. Don't blame corporations for working within the system they're presented. Blame an apathetic voter base.

> Don't blame corporations for working within the system they're presented. Blame an apathetic voter base. I can blame both. Ethical companies will not abuse a bad law, nor will they pay millions to lobby to break laws, or use the Citizen's United ruling to pour money into electing people who will pass laws they want. It's hard to even see how it is possible to vote against them now that they've got billions of dolla…

There's plenty of blame to go around. Pick a political target, and sink your teeth into it, whether that's data privacy, immigration rights, single payer, whatever. Pick a candidate running for office who is congruent with your values, support them mercilessly, move on to the next challenge after the election.

Squabbling on Hacker News? Does zero. Let's get something done.

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