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The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

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Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#181

Post by epalmer »

BeetleB wrote: post #176
epalmer wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes me sad and mad. I work at a small liberal arts university in IT and they are still telling the students to take whatever Arts and Sciences major. The school I work at does limit student debt and is a needs based school (they provide a lot of debt free aid in the form of grants), so that is good. But still majoring in the classics or art (especially from a school not known for art), art history and art mana…

>If you can't major in a science, CS or engineering then major in business. When I was in school, people had the most contempt for business majors. The engineering people got respect for the technical difficulty of what they did. The liberal arts folks got respect for the intellectual pursuit. When we would look at a business major, all we would see was style with no substance. Almost all their education was geared t…

I mentored two international business majors (from bosnia). They graduated at the top of the class for all business majors. They learned at the school I work at much more than that. But I have heard about programs like you describe.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#182

Post by poikniok »

nercht12 wrote: post #155

Even STEM can be a bad investment, depending on what you do. I graduated with a degree in Chem, wanting to do nanoscale computers and -later- optical computing. Found out 3rd year that unless I got a doctorate, I'd be a glorified lab rat. What's worse is that even if I got a doctorate, I'd still be a lab rat while trying to get one and would have a sliver of a chance to get a job anyways. My choice? I graduated, but…

How can California be too expensive to consider a job in? Total comp can be very very high ...

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#183

Post by Retric »

BeetleB wrote: post #174
Retric wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I can save X dollars per year in San Francisco then I need to be able to save X dollars per year in Iowa not just live similar lifestyles on less money. Because savings has ZERO cost of living adjustments. Further, Social Security has zero cost of living adjustments so if your making less than the cap that has long term consequences. If your saving 15% at 200k that's 30% at 100k for the same net savings. While a 1…

>If I can save X dollars per year in San Francisco then I need to be able to save X dollars per year in Iowa not just live similar lifestyles on less money. Agreed, and I think that is what people are saying. Also, do make sure you do an apples to apples comparison. In the Midwest, I may pay $1500/mo to live in a 2500 sq ft house (and less with all the tax credits related to interest/real estate). Compare the same co…

Even that's not really a fair comparison. I would be willing to live in an efficiency to save an extra 10k / year because a 1000 sq ft apartment is not inherently worth that much to me. I have a 1br apartment because the cost difference is tiny, and efficiency's are hard to find. Further, I flat out don't want a 2500 sq ft house, but for those people who want that much space sure it's a different cost / benefit comparison.

A fair comparison is based on similar levels of someones personal utility function. If they like green carpets slightly more and they own their house they might get green carpets, but it's not really a large benefit to home ownership for them.

In the end of the day more people live in NYC metro area than live in New Mexico, Nebraska, West Virginia, Idaho, Hawaii, New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island, Montana, Delaware, South Dakota, North Dakota, Alaska, District of Columbia, Vermont, and Wyoming combined. Largely because they think it's a better tradeoff.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#184

Post by randomdata »

kamaal wrote: post #148
soverance wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't feel bad, this exact same situation happened to me. I wanted to make a change in my life, and build a better future for myself. Everyone I spoke to said that going to college would be a great idea - there was no way the investment would not be worth it. My parents, my coworkers, my friends, and of course the advisors at my school - they all said it would be worth it. Not a single contradiction throughout countl…

>>I realize that college isn't teaching me anything I could not have learned for free on YouTube/Google. And yet not many people train themselves watching just these videos. You generally need a highly disciplined lifestyle to get your education through these means. >>Angry at the scores of people who deceived me into believing college was a good investment, and angrier at the institution for acting like predators up…

> And yet not many people train themselves watching just these videos.

Although not that many go out of their way to train – period. You are already an exceptional case if you are thinking about furthering your education, be it through postsecondary schooling or Youtube videos.

> You generally need a highly disciplined lifestyle to get your education through these means.

More disciplined than than those who do not attain an advanced education at all, but not more than other avenues of gaining the same education.

> Many things in college have gone from 'learning' to 'getting a degree for a job' a long time ago.

The perception has, at least. The outcome hasn't. Job quality has measurably declined with increasing college attainment rates, and incomes have remained stagnant.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#185

Post by bwb »

austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

Well said.

A lot of people still believe that BS. I know people pushing their kids so hard and paying hundreds of thousands of dollars on education bills over a 4 year college. And, for what?

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#186

Post by BeetleB »

Retric wrote: post #183
BeetleB wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If I can save X dollars per year in San Francisco then I need to be able to save X dollars per year in Iowa not just live similar lifestyles on less money. Agreed, and I think that is what people are saying. Also, do make sure you do an apples to apples comparison. In the Midwest, I may pay $1500/mo to live in a 2500 sq ft house (and less with all the tax credits related to interest/real estate). Compare the same co…

Even that's not really a fair comparison. I would be willing to live in an efficiency to save an extra 10k / year because a 1000 sq ft apartment is not inherently worth that much to me. I have a 1br apartment because the cost difference is tiny, and efficiency's are hard to find. Further, I flat out don't want a 2500 sq ft house, but for those people who want that much space sure it's a different cost / benefit compa…

>I would be willing to live in an efficiency to save an extra 10k / year because a 1000 sq ft apartment is not inherently worth that much to me. I have a 1br apartment because the cost difference is tiny, and efficiency's are hard to find. Further, I flat out don't want a 2500 sq ft house, but for those people who want that much space sure it's a different cost / benefit comparison.

Sure, but then compare the cost with the same efficiency in the Midwest. When I lived there, you could get decent efficiencies for under $400/mo.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#187

Post by Retric »

BeetleB wrote: post #186
Retric wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even that's not really a fair comparison. I would be willing to live in an efficiency to save an extra 10k / year because a 1000 sq ft apartment is not inherently worth that much to me. I have a 1br apartment because the cost difference is tiny, and efficiency's are hard to find. Further, I flat out don't want a 2500 sq ft house, but for those people who want that much space sure it's a different cost / benefit compa…

>I would be willing to live in an efficiency to save an extra 10k / year because a 1000 sq ft apartment is not inherently worth that much to me. I have a 1br apartment because the cost difference is tiny, and efficiency's are hard to find. Further, I flat out don't want a 2500 sq ft house, but for those people who want that much space sure it's a different cost / benefit comparison. Sure, but then compare the cost wi…

I am trying to do an neutral analysis not just favor one side.

Importantly, the gap between an efficiency in Midwest vs. SF is much less money than a 2500 sf house which favors SF. But, people would likely not get an efficiency in the Midwest on a 100k salary because the gap between an efficiency is also small. Or as a young friend of mine said, not being in WV is worth having a roommate in Northern Virginia.

Up-sizing lifestyle to compensate for downsizing culture seems very appealing when you have kids. Further, the closer you get to retirement the less important that years savings become. But, at that point you have already got a social circle in _ which biases as does even higher salaries you can get at 40+.

Still, I think based on behavior companies need to offer higher salaries outside of major metro areas before people stop concentrating in those areas. Yokyo Japan and many other major city's show the same trends suggesting it's not just US government policies responsible.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#188

Post by contingencies »

cbr wrote: post #64
contingencies wrote: post #9

graduating from college makes you almost as likely to own a home, by age 36, as someone from a high-income family. I assume they mean "own" in the sense "get a mortgage on" not "have fully paid for", no?

That's what "own" means with houses. You're a "homeowner" after closing, and you are the legal owner of the property, even though you still owe thousands to your bank.

That's my point. Debt is not an achievement.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#189

Post by sjg007 »

mercer wrote: post #112
ryandrake wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a shithole slate-mining town of less than 5000 people. Most of the people there couldn't even spell STEM. High school guidance counsellor was still extremely clear. "Do go to college, but for the love of god, major in Medicine, Science, or Engineering. Don't waste your time and money with anything else."

I get the impression that it's mostly middle-class parents who told their kids to 'follow their heart' in this regard. Anecdotally, but very obviously so, both the working class and upper-class people I know were give more strategic advice.

It works if your parents are doctors or dentists or otherwise wealthy. You can start a company with a safety net!

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#190

Post by douche »

tangent128 wrote: post #119
douche wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sort of sad how much we have infantilized ourselves in this generation. We're almost to the point where somebody who is turning 30 is less mature and capable than someone 100 years ago was at sixteen.

100 years ago, manual labor was still a dominant slice of the economy; a sixteen-year-old who uncritically followed the advice of their parents would probably not be screwing over their career. And if they could attend college 100 years ago, it was worth the investment.

I still find it disappointing how dysfunctional we expect people to be these days. My grandfather had four children at my age, and had fought kamikaze pilots off Okinawa.
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