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The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

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Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#141

Post by dionidium »

austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

This is just simply not true. I know it makes people feel better, but it's nonsense. I started college in 1999. It was plainly obvious to me that some degrees had better prospects than others. People routinely made jokes about majors that had poor career prospects. Jokes about English majors asking if you want fries with that have been around for a long, long time.

This information was available to everyone. If you didn't pay attention to it, then that's on you. This isn't a new discovery.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#142

Post by gshubert17 »

crusso wrote: post #56
austenallred wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100%. It's a broken system with misaligned incentives. The college doesn't have to care if you get a job, the loans are backed by the federal government so there's no risk there, and 100% of the risk is placed on the shoulders of the student. Even if we didn't have government sponsored education straight up, if any of the money involved were dependent upon a student's career success I believe we'd see a very differen…

Are you saying to get rid of the federal government backing of the loan? Let the banks making the loans sink or swim based upon the success of the students and their ability to pay it back?

One alternative is to have the college be on the hook for the first 20% of the loan. Now they would have skin in the game. Once 20% is gone, then the federal government could backstop the rest.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#143

Post by soverance »

austenallred wrote: post #72
ryandrake wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't…

I graduated high school in 2008 and dropped out of college a few years later. I can honestly say not one person (other than my parents) ever recommended considering cost until after my Freshman year of college. The message that was pounded in again and again and again was "The best college at all costs." I'm pretty sure that's no longer the case - at least I hope so.

Don't feel bad, this exact same situation happened to me.

I wanted to make a change in my life, and build a better future for myself. Everyone I spoke to said that going to college would be a great idea - there was no way the investment would not be worth it. My parents, my coworkers, my friends, and of course the advisors at my school - they all said it would be worth it. Not a single contradiction throughout countless conversations.

So I went to college, at my own expense. I had no money, so I pulled federal loans like so many others. $25k and 1.5 years later, I realize that college isn't teaching me anything I could not have learned for free on YouTube/Google. Angry at the scores of people who deceived me into believing college was a good investment, and angrier at the institution for acting like predators upon my naive desire to succeed, I dropped out. When I spoke with the Dean of my school about how I was not feeling challenged after paying exorbitant fees, she said these exact words: "Well, maybe college just isn't for you."

Needless to say, I now know more about my chosen career field than most average college grads, due to experience. However, years later I'm still $25k in the hole - the only significant debt I've ever incurred in my entire life.

For me, college was a literal waste of $25,000+ and nearly two years of my life. At this point in my life, I'm telling everyone who asks that college is a complete waste of time, money, and energy.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#144

Post by ThrustVectoring »

stinkytaco wrote: post #139
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #118

College is a positional good, so "Is college worth it" is a question with two answers. Let me explain. The first question is "as an individual job-seeker, is college worth it to me personally ". Which it probably still is - there's very real discrimination against folks without a degree. The second question is "for job-seekers as a class , does college help them". Which it almost certainly isn't - there's a huge amou…

I like this idea, but I also routinely see criticism on HN of interviews that attempt to determine knowledge level (puzzle solving, programming tasks, and so on). And, of course, you start to wade into the problem of any exam, that it's too narrow, biased, and so on. I think your point about job-seekers as a class is mostly right, but it doesn't bring into account one of the things college provides you, which is a we…

Does college provide it, or select for it? This is extraordinarily important. If it teaches good time management skills, then we can get more of that by expanding college programs. If it merely fails out people who don't have good time management skills, then there are cheaper ways to get a piece of paper proving that the holder has good time management skills.

>This is absolutely not universally true, but a higher percentage of the college graduates I've worked with are good in teams than of non-college graduates I've worked with.

And even if true, this is not an argument to expand college education. Like, I absolutely agree that there's good reasons for individual employers to prefer college graduates. There's also good reasons for individual fishing boats to prefer over-fishing.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#145

Post by will_brown »

rayiner wrote: post #116
agalarza wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if this is too personal, but did you think your parents were blowing hot air or something? This thread has been eye-opening from the perspective of all these comments who (apparently) had negligible guidance from a group of people (parents) who absolutely need to talk about debt to their kids. Maybe a silver lining in this topic is a generation of future parents who will have better conversations with their kid…

My parents never warned me about education debt. I think it's a common trait among baby boomer parents - they're convinced it'll all work out and that education is worth any cost. Heck, my parents (who are both baby boomers and asian, so double whammy) are disappointed that my brother will not leave his Wall Street job to go to graduate school. They can't even articulate a reason how that would help his career--they'…

I would add that baby boomers either: a) had parents able to pay for their entire education; b) were able to work their way thru school; or c) used a GI bill.

In other words the market effects of guaranteed student loans that permited colleges/universities to charge any tuition fees they want and still have an endless supply of student with the funds to pay. Baby boomers can't imagine graduating with the equivalent of a mortgage payment and the reality of a non existent job market that might put them in a financial position to payoff their student loans much less pursue the American dream (house, car, kids).

Meanwhile culturally we have a media that pushes the narrative of 4% unemployment; that young people don't want to own a car; young people don't want to own a house; and young people don't want to get married and have families. The whole thing highlights US culture from the individual to the collective willing to lie/embellish finances, which prohibits anyone from having honest conversations about guaranteed loans; actually costs of school; lack of jobs; non existent wage increases since the 80's...it's the culture of lying/masking finances and a debt fueled economy that lead to housing collapse and eventually will lead to a collapse in the student loan market.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#146

Post by geebee »

ryandrake wrote: post #107
paulddraper wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having graduated high school in 2008, I don't quite understand it either. My school counselors were always saying "School is expensive; you need to apply for scholarships!" And then there was career day, when you quickly figured out some of the realities of work. Plus the STEM folks always said things like "The US needs more engineers!", "Math + science is important!". Perhaps because I lived on Florida's Space Coast…

I grew up in a shithole slate-mining town of less than 5000 people. Most of the people there couldn't even spell STEM. High school guidance counsellor was still extremely clear. "Do go to college, but for the love of god, major in Medicine, Science, or Engineering. Don't waste your time and money with anything else."

That's really interesting, and I'm not surprised to hear it.

There was a study a while back concluding that it doesn't matter where you go to college - provided you major in STEM. It's a little more complicated than that (attrition rates, quality of curriculum), but overall, there is some truth to this - if you want to get a good job and keep costs down, majoring in engineering at a reputable state school can be a good way to go.

There is an interesting corollary to this, though - it does matter where you go to college, provided you don't major in STEM. This might explain why "elite" US college students are so allergic to engineering. Why go to Harvard if it doesn't provide you with any advantage. If computer science majors from San Jose state have access to the same jobs, what good does Harvard do you?

If you go to an elite college, you can major in economics and go to business school, or hell, major in international relations and go to law school. Jobs prospects for lawyers aren't generally great, but pay and prospects are very good for people who build a network at an ivy and go to a very elite law school.

So your comment about a slate-mining town may be particularly relevant here. People who perceive college from a low income perspective see no point to majoring in Art History, because their chances of becoming a six figure salaried director or an art or cultural institution are basically zero. For a Harvard grad, however, especially one form an upper middle class family with the right connections, it may be a very achievable possibility.

Similarly, why would. a Harvard grad be a senior CRUD bug fixer for 140k a year when he or she could run a nonprofit or cultural organization for a similar salary?

Perhaps the value of elite colleges isn't so much that they can get you a higher salary, but that they can give you a path to a higher salary in culturally interesting job paths that are closed off to most of the populace. Harvard allows you a crack at that salary without having to be a senior CRUD bug fixer.

As an aside, I think one big thing may be overlooked in the "it doesn't matter where you go if you major in STEM" study, because there's a lot under the hood if you only consider salaries. Just as there is a big difference between being a senior CRUD bug fixer for $140k a year and the "director of the American Heritage Film foundation" for $140k a year, there's also a difference between ostensibly similar titles in tech. It could be that elite tech graduates don't show a big difference in salary between grads from less celebrated schools, but do they end up with more autonomy, fewer deadlines, more interesting and exploratory work? "Machine Learning Specialist for Election Results analysis" for the NYTimes is a very different job from "Manager of Payroll and Benefits Data Migration" for a bigco. I'm not 100% convinced where you go to college plays no role in this.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#147

Post by r_smart »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #123
r_smart wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really doubt there's some cabal of rich people that don't want others to understand interest. If anything, it would be to their advantage to have more potential business partners floating around out there. I think the reality is more likely that people working in schools are public employees, they tend to be apathetic or hostile towards capitalism, and not terribly interested in boring business stuff. These are the…

Public employees in most other developed countries seem to do a pretty good job, though. Why do you think they succeed where America fails?

You think they're doing a good job of educating the public school students, particularly in terms of money? I don't think I've got the information to agree or disagree with that. I'm inclined to say they're not succeeding where the US fails, but, again, not really qualified to say.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#148

Post by kamaal »

soverance wrote: post #143
austenallred wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated high school in 2008 and dropped out of college a few years later. I can honestly say not one person (other than my parents) ever recommended considering cost until after my Freshman year of college. The message that was pounded in again and again and again was "The best college at all costs." I'm pretty sure that's no longer the case - at least I hope so.

Don't feel bad, this exact same situation happened to me. I wanted to make a change in my life, and build a better future for myself. Everyone I spoke to said that going to college would be a great idea - there was no way the investment would not be worth it. My parents, my coworkers, my friends, and of course the advisors at my school - they all said it would be worth it. Not a single contradiction throughout countl…

>>I realize that college isn't teaching me anything I could not have learned for free on YouTube/Google.

And yet not many people train themselves watching just these videos.

You generally need a highly disciplined lifestyle to get your education through these means.

>>Angry at the scores of people who deceived me into believing college was a good investment, and angrier at the institution for acting like predators upon my naive desire to succeed, I dropped out.

They were most likely talking about your job prospects.

Many things in college have gone from 'learning' to 'getting a degree for a job' a long time ago.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#149

Post by stinkytaco »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #144
stinkytaco wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this idea, but I also routinely see criticism on HN of interviews that attempt to determine knowledge level (puzzle solving, programming tasks, and so on). And, of course, you start to wade into the problem of any exam, that it's too narrow, biased, and so on. I think your point about job-seekers as a class is mostly right, but it doesn't bring into account one of the things college provides you, which is a we…

Does college provide it, or select for it? This is extraordinarily important. If it teaches good time management skills, then we can get more of that by expanding college programs. If it merely fails out people who don't have good time management skills, then there are cheaper ways to get a piece of paper proving that the holder has good time management skills. >This is absolutely not universally true, but a higher p…

Where the overfishing analogy breaks down is that we have the power to provide enough fish. College doesn't have to be expensive. As little as 15 years ago it was quite possible to work your way through college and come out with manageable debt. Something else happened to balloon the cost of education in that time period. Perhaps the increased reliance on loans, cuts in financial aid to students and state assistance to universities, ballooning student services and administration costs, etc. I don't know. But it certainly seems like a problem that can be solved on the supply end.

Which leads me to the other end of the equation, the job market. The distinction between selection and training isn't important to me as an employer. What I as an employer know is that college is a good shorthand for a variety of skills I feel are important. Knowledge testing doesn't cover those skills. It would likely encourage me to disregard entry level candidates in favor of ones with previous work experience or contacts I trust. Right now I'm fairly confident taking a flyer on a young person either in or recently graduated from college that interviews well, but that confidence would decrease without that knowledge and I don't have any shortage of candidates with work experience.

I'm willing to explore new ways of evaluation, but I think over time college became optimized for putting out good white collar employees. And employers have become optimized to working with people that have a certain, homogeneous educational background. Before we cut that wire, we need to have the alternative evaluation pieces in place or the negative externalities, especially on young candidates, would be huge.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#150

Post by jMyles »

maxxxxx wrote: post #104
jMyles wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm part of that generation and made that mistake for sure. > The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The takeaway here is, in part: don't do something just because you're told to. If our generation stops doing what we're told (which seems to be the case), then this will be a small price.

How is someone 18 years old supposed to figure out what to do? At that age I had no idea how the workplace works or how to get a career, don't event talk about a career I like. Some people have parents with insight or they just have luck but without guidance what do you do?

I think that 18 year-olds today are quite a lot more sophisticated than I was at 18.

But yeah, it's tough; you need to survey multiple sources.

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