The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt • Hacker News Board

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#31

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:36 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #25

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a market failure or market inefficiency caused by an politically induced scarcity of housing through zoning density restrictions. This is true, but it's also a failure of policies that have led to the majority of job growth being in the biggest cities in the country. If we could spread things out a bit and keep smaller cities a viable place to create jobs, the bigger cities wouldn't be impacted nearly as hard.

I think it has less to do with viable job creation than wider political issues. It's cheap to open an office in Iowa, but talent/upper middle class people don't want to move there. Not simply because of social issues, but because companies don't pay enough. IE if I can save 20% of 150k moving to a cheap location is only viable if I can save 30k not just 20% of a lower salary.

The reason people don't want to move there is because that's not where the money is, which makes sense. But when everyone thinks like that, it causes most of the wealth to concentrate to a handful of areas across the nation while the rest suffers from lack of development. It's not even. There used to be a lot of legislation that prevented that and led to development across the nation, but most of that legislation was overturned by the 90's[1].

[1] http://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/novdec-2015/bloom-and-...

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#32

Post by nojvek » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:40 PM UTC

> So, is college still worth it? In the most simplistic terms, yes.

Not really, college is only worth it if you finish a select number of degrees and are somewhat middle class to begin with.

US education system slowly alienates a large portion of the country putting them in debt forever. It's a stark contrast to Germany and some of the Nordic countries.

But I also believe America is too big to make much changes regarding education.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#33

Post by r_smart » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:44 PM UTC

austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

Perhaps one of the silver linings of growing up poor was that I, and my friends, were conscious of money, or its lack. I wanted to pursue a writing degree and knew I shouldn't spend a ton of money on it, so I stayed local and worked to mostly pay my way through my first degree. My friends went to fancier schools, but did it in pursuit of business degrees, looking to get a good return on their education.

The point being, because we maybe understood money a little better, we made more practical decisions with regards to education. We certainly didn't get useful advice from our parents or school.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#34

Post by austenallred » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:45 PM UTC

jMyles wrote: post #14

austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

I'm part of that generation and made that mistake for sure. > The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The takeaway here is, in part: don't do something just because you're told to. If our generation stops doing what we're told (which seems to be the case), then this will be a small price.

Agreed, though if the incentives weren't so misaligned it wouldn't doom you to 20-30 years of struggle if/when you didn't think for yourself.

For example, if the loans weren't backed by Uncle Sam there would be some threshold at which the loan providers would say "OK people studying this aren't getting jobs." Or if the universities that were promising careers had their feet held to the fire somehow before it had to reach ITT Tech billions of dollars.

I've been thinking a lot about a model in which education is extended as credit. If students paid back a percentage of income how would that change colleges? I don't have all of the answers, and bootstrapping that kind of thing is rough, but I'm trying a few experiments along those lines that could be very interesting at scale.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#35

Post by adrianN » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:46 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #18

davidf18 wrote: post #13

A problem is that many of the higher paying jobs are in cities such as NYC, SF, LA, Boston, DC, (also London, ...) and the housing is expensive in these cities because of "rent-seeking" -- a market failure or market inefficiency caused by an politically induced scarcity of housing through zoning density restrictions. This harms renters and those starting out in life while benefiting wealthy landlords such as Presiden…

> a market failure or market inefficiency caused by an politically induced scarcity of housing through zoning density restrictions. This is true, but it's also a failure of policies that have led to the majority of job growth being in the biggest cities in the country. If we could spread things out a bit and keep smaller cities a viable place to create jobs, the bigger cities wouldn't be impacted nearly as hard.

For a company it seems beneficial to draw from a bigger pool of potential workers by having their headquarters in a big city.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#36

Post by elastic_church » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:46 PM UTC

uiri wrote: post #17

austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

How is "did exactly what they were told" different from "did not think for themselves" ? Any kind of large decision demands a cost-benefit analysis, including opportunity costs, time value of money, etc. The labour market does not change that much in 4-5 years (barring something like the 08-09 financial meltdown). It should be straightforward to check whether a degree is necessary in order to land a decent job - appl…

You're right

One aspect that supports useless degree seekers is that it's not about "today's" job market, its about having the degree forever to give an advantage in any job market

Oops!

The first thing the mob will do is come for the intelligentsia so no use telling people that their parents were wrong or that they were gullible

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#37

Post by ep103 » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:46 PM UTC

r_smart wrote: post #33

austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

Perhaps one of the silver linings of growing up poor was that I, and my friends, were conscious of money, or its lack. I wanted to pursue a writing degree and knew I shouldn't spend a ton of money on it, so I stayed local and worked to mostly pay my way through my first degree. My friends went to fancier schools, but did it in pursuit of business degrees, looking to get a good return on their education. The point bei…

You make a good point. Yet the entire time I'm reading it, the main thought going through my mind, is people shouldn't have to make choices like this about education. And definitely not in a democracy.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#38

Post by supergeek133 » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:47 PM UTC

These types of things are always a cause and effect relationship, and I feel we never look at the cause.

This line bothers me in particular:

> So, is college still worth it? In the most simplistic terms, yes.

It is only worth it because we've made it a requirement to find employment with growth potential outside of the trades or sales. Hell, even some sales jobs are requiring degrees now.

If Corporate America was honest with itself about which jobs REALLY required a degree versus just some level of experience, college would become devalued in some respects.

I'm 'one of the lucky ones'. I don't have a degree, I work in a fairly important job for a fortune 100 company. I am paid fairly well for my area and I enjoy my job. My experience built up over time got me to where I am, but I know many others who weren't afforded the same chance just because their resume didn't have a piece of paper and debt attached to it. That being said I'll probably eventually hit a wall where I can't advance anymore, and I'm probably OK with that.

The other cause we've failed to address is the constantly rising cost of going to college. Government programs to increase loan availability (and forgiveness) have just raised the price, because the student can "afford" it.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#39

Post by r_smart » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:47 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #23

uiri wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is "did exactly what they were told" different from "did not think for themselves" ? Any kind of large decision demands a cost-benefit analysis, including opportunity costs, time value of money, etc. The labour market does not change that much in 4-5 years (barring something like the 08-09 financial meltdown). It should be straightforward to check whether a degree is necessary in order to land a decent job - appl…

Assuming that 18 year olds should be capable of calculating cost-benefit analyses and execute long-term planning en masse is entirely too optimistic. Our schooling is way too bad to expect that, and our brains aren't even fully developed until the age of 25. The fact that so many young people feel the need to go to college to get a career in the first place is a sign that our economy is highly imbalanced right now. P…

One of my favorite things to knock on about is how we live in a capitalist society but our compulsory education doesn't ever address basic finance & economics. Most of these kids have no idea what interest is or what their post graduation payments are going to be like unless they've had the fortune of a knowledgeable parent or teacher taking the time to explain things.

It's kind of shameful to me that I was 30 years old and getting an engineering degree before I ever encountered the idea that money has a time value, hence interest.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#40

Post by austenallred » Tue, Apr 04, 2017, 2:49 PM UTC

ep103 wrote: post #37

r_smart wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps one of the silver linings of growing up poor was that I, and my friends, were conscious of money, or its lack. I wanted to pursue a writing degree and knew I shouldn't spend a ton of money on it, so I stayed local and worked to mostly pay my way through my first degree. My friends went to fancier schools, but did it in pursuit of business degrees, looking to get a good return on their education. The point bei…

You make a good point. Yet the entire time I'm reading it, the main thought going through my mind, is people shouldn't have to make choices like this about education. And definitely not in a democracy.

100%. It's a broken system with misaligned incentives. The college doesn't have to care if you get a job, the loans are backed by the federal government so there's no risk there, and 100% of the risk is placed on the shoulders of the student.

Even if we didn't have government sponsored education straight up, if any of the money involved were dependent upon a student's career success I believe we'd see a very different educational system.