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Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

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Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#201

Post by codingmyway »

I'm contemplating this right now. I work in London because the extra money over working elsewhere in the UK more than pays the rent and I know people here now. I if lived further out and commuted then the cost of transport would almost wipe out the rental saving and I'd have two hours+ commute everyday instead of a healthier cycle through the park.

I could get a remote job for half the money and that would be worth it for a change of scenery living somewhere cheap despite the tanking pound. Personally I think I'd be more productive living in Asia working London hours, so 3 in the afternoon until 11pm, as this suits me more especially somewhere where there is little to do in the evening. It just suits my body clock.

I know this because I did it for a while despite the financial crisis ruining it at exactly the wrong time, happening two weeks after I left the country for two years. Now I need a financial crisis to stand a chance of buying a house I figure going back to that life is my better option for now.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#202

Post by jackgolding »

stonith wrote: post #133
jpatokal wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in both, and I can assure you Sydney's startup/dev scene is far larger. For one thing, basically all the multinational IT giants (Google, Facebook, Amazon etc) have their Oz HQs in Sydney.

Fair enough, although Facebook don't have any devs here, so I'm not sure they belong on that list. I found a bunch of places are similar in that they only have sales staff here - RedHat has most of their devs in Brisbane and Cisco has more in Melbourne, for example. Looking at Amazon's jobs page it seems like there's dev roles in Sydney at least, and Google definitely have devs here.

Lots of sales offices in Melb (Google, LinkedIn...)

Losing Startcon to Sydney was one of my top reasons other than that international startups (particularly fintech) seem to gravitate towards Sydney.

Melbourne does have some noticeable startups - Carsales.com.au, realestate.com.au, envato, seek but I think there isn't enough done to phrase them. If you are in Melbourne however I'd recommend coming a Inspire9 pitch night or a SiliconBeach meetup. Finally Andrew Hyde's writing speaks of some of the strengths in Melbourne http://andrewhy.de/why-your-startup-should-visit-melbourne/

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#203

Post by jackgolding »

wingerlang wrote: post #155
jackgolding wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Melbourne like all Australian capital cities has congestion problems and very expensive housing. I've found myself wishing I was in the startup scene in Sydney instead (seems more mature and serious.)

Can you not move? The distance is not that big as far as I remember (at least not comparing to AU in general).

Its very possible, spending the medium term figuring out my next move (haven't even been in Melbourne for a year)

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#204

Post by Luuseens »

taway_1212 wrote: post #162
prostoalex wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're a fantastic developer in Ukraine, India or China and have very limited needs (compared to a guy with a family and kids), your disposable monthly income net of taxes, rent and commute expenses is still likely to be higher in Silicon Valley than Ukraine, India or China. A rational decision then would be to move to Silicon Valley arbitraging the costs as much as you can (living with roommates, commuting by Cal…

> If you're a fantastic developer in Ukraine, India or China and have very limited needs (compared to a guy with a family and kids), your disposable monthly income net of taxes, rent and commute expenses is still likely to be higher in Silicon Valley than Ukraine, India or China. I feel like I'm rather average developer, and live in Poland (more expensive than the countries you listed), and still managed to save over…

Can I pick your brain on this? I'm from Latvia, but currently based in London. Currently looking to move back and move in to working fully remotely.

Were you contracting for US companies in your previous remote job?

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#205

Post by codingmyway »

nathan_f77 wrote: post #31

Hello from a cafe in Chiang Mai. > Chiang Mai is very nice, but doesn’t have the Met, or steampunk masquerade parties or 50 foodie restaurants within a 15-minute walk. That's true, I do miss museums, theater, and live music from my favorite bands. But there's some really fun events (Songkran is coming soon), you can find some good music, and there's a lot of really good restaurants. If I had a lot more money, I would…

I heard there is a bit of a tech scene in Pai. There wasn't a few years ago when I was there but that is somewhere I could imagine working remotely from.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#206

Post by notacoward »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #16

If the type of development work you're doing can be easily done remotely, then there is a good chance it can be done much cheaper by a fantastic developer in Ukraine, or India, or China, or some country where wages are a lot cheaper than US or England or Canada. If, however, the type of work you're doing benefits from face-to-face interactions (i.e. quick iterations with lots of feedback from users, marketing and pro…

"Easily" is the key word in that first sentence. Even the deepest infrastructure work, short of actually having to touch hardware, can be done remotely and the people doing it can be among the hardest to outsource/replace. It just requires a bit more skill, effort, and tooling, but employers - even those known for a generally high level of colocation - are willing to pay for an accommodate that.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#207

Post by sidlls »

Anderkent wrote: post #172
karthikb wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - it absolutely can. What matters in the above scenario is the total cash left over after expenses (surplus), not the size of the expenses (expenditure).

But the idea is that you take a remote job based in (rich country), get paid like a (rich country) developer, but only have costs of a developer in (poor country).

And that idea is just that: an idea. It happens rarely enough that putting forward as normal requires some proof.

The company I work for uses remote workers from Ukraine and India. I know for a fact their salaries are less than 1/3 domestic salaries. This is in my experience what is actually normal. Pretty good for the cost of living, but they aren't saving as much as I am unless a good portion of their expenses are paid by someone else.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#208

Post by matwood »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #14
hasenj wrote: post #3

In my personal experience remote work does not work so well. At least I haven't been able to make it work for me. For the second point, well I think expensive cities are expensive because people want to be there. If you can choose to live anywhere, why not go to the best place, specially when you can afford it?

I've worked remote for almost three years for a profitable startup. It's not all sunshine and rainbows, but not having a commute is incredibly liberating. I've also found my careeer options to not be limited by being remote. Also, I live in Florida 20 minutes from one of the best beaches in the country. Not as "culturally fulfilling" as say the Mission or Castro districts (have been to SF more times than I can count,…

I'm basically in your same situation (although my area is getting more expensive as people realize it's a great city). I have worked fully remote or partially remote for years. I live on the marsh, have a boat, and get to enjoy the ocean all the time. I love visiting cities, but after traveling to many different cities I have never wanted to live full time in one (if forced to pick it would be London). I grew up more how I live now, so that probably has something to do with how I feel.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#209

Post by oblio »

ferbivore wrote: post #200
mfukar wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as an aside, Cyprus is in the process of joining Schengen "soon", along with Romania, Bulgaria, & Croatia.

Romania and Bulgaria have been about to join Schengen any moment now for about a decade, and Cyprus is in a much less stable situation than either of them.

And Romania actually fulfilled all conditions for Schengen membership a few years ago... And it's still blocked from joining out of sheer spite, I guess?

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#210

Post by sidlls »

taway_1212 wrote: post #163
Swizec wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I moved to SF from Slovenia. The percentage of my income that I save* is smaller, but the absolute number is still bigger. Turns out the glass ceiling for "smart dirty immigrant" jobs is much higher than the ceiling for "remote dude" jobs as well. Add the nice bonus that there's simply more to do in a megalopolis of 6mio people than a city of 300k and it's kind of a no brainer. Unless of course you're okay stagn…

> Add the nice bonus that there's simply more to do in a megalopolis of 6mio people than a city of 300k and it's kind of a no brainer. Can you give an example? I've lived in London before and I don't think I saw a single thing available there (that I was interested in) that wasn't available in much smaller cities. I mean, why do you need thousands of restaurants and nightclubs, when in a small city you still have doz…

Restaurants and nightclubs aren't the only things people want. There is the arts and exposure to other cultures and languages, educational opportunities, recreation for kids (e.g. parks), and a number of other things that aren't actually available, generally, in these lower cost of living smaller places.
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