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Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

nytimes.com

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Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People should be able to express those ideas as well No. There is no place in the world for antisemitism, homophobia or other right-extremist views. These "opinions" are direct threats to people. And when the state, as it often does, fails to protect the marginalized, then in my opinion nearly anything is acceptable to stop these "opinions" from being expressed. We in Germany already have seen what happens when you…

You tell me what your model speech code would look like, and I'll show you how I could use it to shut your speech down within a decade.

Are you sure about that? I am usually a pretty strong free speech advocate, up to toeing the line of being a free speech absolutist at some points in my life (of the: "nuclear weapon blueprints posted online are just as valid speech as any other sequence of bits, information wants to be free!" variety). But I still think you can design speech codes that are not prone to slippery slope under any sane interpretation.

I mean, the U.S. already has one of those, the whole "fighting words" exception, other countries have a few of their own. It is not entirely clear to me that banning say "open calls to organized violence or coordinated reprisals against members of an ethnic or religious group, on the basis of membership into such group" would be to the detriment of political discourse.

Don't get me wrong, as I said, I am more often on the corner of extreme free speech than its opposite, but saying that the only other alternative is broad censorship is a bit of a strawman. Even with things like eugenics, which I do find instinctively abhorrent, you can easily craft a clear line where things like "I believe group A is better at X than group B, here is my social science study about it and supporting evidence" are perfectly valid speech (and people can engage with that if they so wish and counter speech with speech until the truth emerges), but where continuing with "therefore we must get rid of all B" is considered axiomatically unacceptable. One is a question of facts, the other is a matter of societal ethics.

As for Mexico, by the way, since I am from there, let me point out that the issue with the safety of journalists in the country now a days (vs say in the sixties) has very little to do with whether we have freedom of speech as a value (we do, both legally and as a society, maybe not to the extreme of the U.S. but to a higher degree than many countries where this is not as big of a problem). The issue is the weakness and capture of the state, where no matter what the people want or the laws say, the state is not able to protect people or enforce laws (in part because it is materially incapable, in part because it is corrupt and colluded).

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#93
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Or perhaps between feeling unsafe in that you fear that that people will call you names online, versus feeling unsafe in that you fear that people will kill you. reply OP's links referred to multiple instances of threats of rape/violence. No-one is suggesting that the situation is directly comparable to the situation of journalists in Mexico (OP has clarified that), but let's not use euphemisms like "name calling" o…

a few times, when I was in high school, a bully yelled at me right in my face and said "you fuckin faggot I'll kill you". I'm not gay, and he wasn't really threatening to kill me.

I’d check the linked articles if I were you. Some of the women were subjected to very coordinated and determined harassment campaigns over a long period. In many cases these campaigns appeared to be coordinated by members of far right groups who are known to use violence. Comparing that situation to your being bullied at school is almost as silly and offensive as the OP’s original comparison. By all means point out that Mexican journalists are in a much worse position that women who are harassed online. Everyone here agrees with that point. But a death threat is a death threat. It’s not “name calling”.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#94
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting t…

I've heard that quote before, but I don't really know its pedigree. Do you have a reference? (I also imagine the lack of sourcing is why you got downvoted).

If anyone doubts the contents of the quoted text, they can copy paste it into Google and discover numerous websites pointing at it. That will guide you to the right source.

Possibly someone downvoted it because they fall under the same establishment or an offspring of that 'Murica generation.

edit: I don't understand the downvotes. This comment contains instructions on how to find the desired source of my original comment which was actually published and publicized in printed media. If you have trouble with Googling, I suggest restarting your computer. Otherwise, trying to deny the track record of systematic racial oppression evident long after the end of racial segregation through downvoting, you are going against history of USA.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#95

Trumps goons are hunting immigrants as we write here. Trump supporters regularly beat up people of color. Police regularly shoots black people. And Trumps entire team believes climate change is fake news - this alone will lead the US and the world with it into a desaster.

Trump's "goons" (you mean ICE officers, right?) aren't "hunting immigrants." They're trying to enforce the laws about legal and illegal immigration.

If you don't like the laws, work to change them. Don't demonize those who are enforcing them.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#96
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The risk is mass murder. Nazis have murdered over 200 people in the last two decades alone in Germany. In Chechenya, only two days ago homophobes murdered at the very least three homosexual people, arrested over a hundred - and credible activists fear for much worse numbers. Fascist and reactionary ideologies always lead to death.

Germany has the type of strict controls on free speech I think you're looking for (it's illegal to be a nazi, attend nazi rallies, etc), and yet they still have the hate crimes of which you speak. There's no evidence that type of control really does anything to help. EDIT: as always, am I being downvoted because I said something disagreeable, or because I said something wrong? If I am saying wrong things, please tell…

> and yet they still have the hate crimes of which you speak.

exactly. all you do is drive it underground, and nothing solidifies ingroup identity like persecution. with free expression you can at least tell who these people are.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#97
post #56

I truly love the country of México - I have spent a large periods of time there for the climate, as a place to work and have a wonderful life, away from the chills of winter. I often thought about making a permanent relocation, but this terror is too real and I found myself living in constant anxiety of my friends and colleagues being in danger, and the fear of speaking your mind weighs on you after a while. I am sad…

>may things improve for you, though I really have no idea how that will happen. I think a good first step would be changing attitudes towards drug use. We should treat users as patients instead of criminals. And waging a 'war' against dealers and smugglers has only made them more violent and dangerous, while driving up prices and making those who survive even wealthier. There needs to be smarter policies.

legalizing drugs would cause the collapse of the cartels and help to end this violence.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#98
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think America should stop buying drugs from Mexico, shipping them guns and promoting the violence. Garry Webb and Michael Rupert were two amazing reporters that brought to light the reality of the CIA funded cocaine trade from South and Central America, and most people today have either never heard of them or dismiss them as crazy. The reality is the CIA still funds itself with cocaine and still causes violence sou…

>shipping them guns This is occasionally obfuscated, but it is utterly true. There are basically two kinds of guns (of the kind you can use to enforce this "war") in the world stage: AK-like (Russian, eastern European, and Chinese included) and AR-like (MXX(X) and modified civilian, from dealers and left over from military/agency operations). The AR-like guns are extremely common in Mexico, and they obviously are all…

Good argument for better border control between the two countries.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#99

It's us , the USA, that is causing this paper to shutdown. The cartels are financed by the insatiable drug appetite of its close neighbor. Our inability and/or unwillingness to legalize recreational drugs is the feeding tube for these vicious groups.

It's surprisingly simple to locate the plantations using LIDAR + spectrometry. Even easier in Afghanistan, where fields are cultivated in the open. It's so well documented that the UNDOC provides an anual report with the amount in acres. I could go on, but this is enough to make one wonder why they aren't being stopped.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#100
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting t…

I've heard that quote before, but I don't really know its pedigree. Do you have a reference? (I also imagine the lack of sourcing is why you got downvoted).

The quote originated from http://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/
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