Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue • Hacker News Board

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#61

Post by komali2 » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:22 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #17

caiob wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And "Freedom of Speech" is a broad term, with a wide variety of implications. Freedom of speech also means being able to channel ideas that aren't as popular and most of the mainstream media may not agree with. People should be able to express those ideas as well.

> People should be able to express those ideas as well No. There is no place in the world for antisemitism, homophobia or other right-extremist views. These "opinions" are direct threats to people. And when the state, as it often does, fails to protect the marginalized, then in my opinion nearly anything is acceptable to stop these "opinions" from being expressed. We in Germany already have seen what happens when you…

Anti-cartel articles are a danger to the cartels.

I think the issue comes to honesty and truth. Generally, far right anti semitic articles are untrue.... Unless they are about Israel. The problem isn't the facts (Israeli missile strike takes out 3 Palestinian citizens or whatever), it's the analysis after (alt-right paper: "it's the Jew's fault," ISIS paper: "it's America's fault," Israeli paper: "three terrorist sympathizers killed in heroic military action"). That's a narrative, and that's nearly impossible to contro sanely, if you are perfectly honest with yourself. Would you strip away a Unions right to push a pro worker narrative? Would you strip Apple's rights to push a pro-corporate narrative? Would you strip a black man's rights to claim he is experiencing racism? What about a white man's rights to claim that racism isn't as big of an issue as the black man says?

There are viewpoints that to you seem so wrong you firmly believe it's be safe to just make them illegal, but that mindset is just an outright dangerous precedent to set because of how fluid human morality and language is.

I'm curious to hear how you feel about this, it is an interesting (and very, very old) debate.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#62

Post by djsumdog » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:24 PM UTC

gph wrote: post #56

telesilla wrote: post #11

I truly love the country of México - I have spent a large periods of time there for the climate, as a place to work and have a wonderful life, away from the chills of winter. I often thought about making a permanent relocation, but this terror is too real and I found myself living in constant anxiety of my friends and colleagues being in danger, and the fear of speaking your mind weighs on you after a while. I am sad…

>may things improve for you, though I really have no idea how that will happen. I think a good first step would be changing attitudes towards drug use. We should treat users as patients instead of criminals. And waging a 'war' against dealers and smugglers has only made them more violent and dangerous, while driving up prices and making those who survive even wealthier. There needs to be smarter policies.

I think America should stop buying drugs from Mexico, shipping them guns and promoting the violence.

Garry Webb and Michael Rupert were two amazing reporters that brought to light the reality of the CIA funded cocaine trade from South and Central America, and most people today have either never heard of them or dismiss them as crazy. The reality is the CIA still funds itself with cocaine and still causes violence south of our border for the industries that would benefit. United Fruit, Bay of Pigs, the 1973 Coupe of Chile, School of the Americas... the list is as long as you want to make it.

This comic sums it up: http://imgur.com/a/Wtt6H

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#63

Post by rdiddly » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:25 PM UTC

Banthum wrote: post #3

digitalmaster wrote: post #2

This is why real journalist need to be protected regardless where you stand on the issues. It's a pillar of democracy for a very important reason.

Agreed, but let's make that even more general. No need to limit that to "real journalists", since then you're just asking for people to build an ivory tower and use it as a power base for control of "non-real" "journalists". Everyone needs to be free to speak their minds. Freedom of speech is for everyone.

Freedom of speech is possible only where there is basic law & order. Everybody here is debating fine points of what speech should & shouldn't be allowed/protected - that assumes there's someone in charge to do the protecting/allowing. Well in Juarez the cartel is in charge, and they protect what they protect, and allow what they allow.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#64

Post by joemi » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:27 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #42

thinkmilitant wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, free speech can be very dangerous. People use it to mobilize others to truly evil acts. But freedoms have always been dangerous. I think they are worth the risk.

The risk is mass murder. Nazis have murdered over 200 people in the last two decades alone in Germany. In Chechenya, only two days ago homophobes murdered at the very least three homosexual people, arrested over a hundred - and credible activists fear for much worse numbers. Fascist and reactionary ideologies always lead to death.

Restriction of free speech is a tool of fascist regimes. You don't fight fascism by becoming a fascist yourself.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#65

Post by sedachv » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:28 PM UTC

gph wrote: post #56

telesilla wrote: post #11

I truly love the country of México - I have spent a large periods of time there for the climate, as a place to work and have a wonderful life, away from the chills of winter. I often thought about making a permanent relocation, but this terror is too real and I found myself living in constant anxiety of my friends and colleagues being in danger, and the fear of speaking your mind weighs on you after a while. I am sad…

>may things improve for you, though I really have no idea how that will happen. I think a good first step would be changing attitudes towards drug use. We should treat users as patients instead of criminals. And waging a 'war' against dealers and smugglers has only made them more violent and dangerous, while driving up prices and making those who survive even wealthier. There needs to be smarter policies.

If you are interested in helping out in ending the drug prohibition in the United States I recommend donating or getting involved with the Drug Policy Alliance: http://www.drugpolicy.org/

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#66

Post by komali2 » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:28 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #37

Trumps goons are hunting immigrants as we write here. Trump supporters regularly beat up people of color. Police regularly shoots black people. And Trumps entire team believes climate change is fake news - this alone will lead the US and the world with it into a desaster.

I haven't yet seen data that hate crimes are on the rise, just that media coverage of them is (in America). That... doesn't really seem like a bad thing to me. Getting these heinous crimes in the light seems like it could do only good (or horribly backfire, I suppose).

>Police regularly shoot black people

I don't see a correlation between this and an increase in hate speech. Or really, even, evidence that police shooting of minorities is on the rise, or that hate speech is on the rise. I'm open to be challenged with new data, though.

>Climate change

Again, a very very big problem (I personally believe Trump's POV on climate change combined with his significant power should beget him the title "enemy of humanity"), but I really don't understand what that would have to do with hate speech.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#67

Post by komali2 » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:30 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #42

thinkmilitant wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, free speech can be very dangerous. People use it to mobilize others to truly evil acts. But freedoms have always been dangerous. I think they are worth the risk.

The risk is mass murder. Nazis have murdered over 200 people in the last two decades alone in Germany. In Chechenya, only two days ago homophobes murdered at the very least three homosexual people, arrested over a hundred - and credible activists fear for much worse numbers. Fascist and reactionary ideologies always lead to death.

Germany has the type of strict controls on free speech I think you're looking for (it's illegal to be a nazi, attend nazi rallies, etc), and yet they still have the hate crimes of which you speak.

There's no evidence that type of control really does anything to help.

EDIT: as always, am I being downvoted because I said something disagreeable, or because I said something wrong? If I am saying wrong things, please tell me so I don't continue to do so.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#68

Post by zymhan » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:30 PM UTC

itsmemattchung wrote: post #7

> The committee reported that since 1992, 38 journalists have been killed with the motives for the slayings confirmed as reprisals for their work. Based on that figure, the group ranked Mexico as No. 11 of the 20 deadliest countries for journalists. I cannot imagine living in a country where posting something online, like a silly blog post, risks my life.

And yet, there are people in your situation, who cannot imagine that life, who condemn those who flee in search of a safe and stable place to live.

Why do people have such a hard time accepting refugees of such violence?

This isn't directed at the parent commenter, of course.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#69

Post by komali2 » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:31 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #53

coredog64 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have the right to publish anything you like without fear of retribution from the government or anybody else. In the US, 1st amendment freedoms only protect against government retribution. There is nothing stopping someone from misinterpreting a tweet and getting you fired, nor is there anything to prevent someone digging up what causes you support outside of work and using that as cause to harass your employer…

While true, you are protected from some types of retribution from others. For example, someone cannot kill or rob you because you express an opinion in defiance of the political or religious leadership.

Well, in my country, it's illegal to kill and rob people at all, so what's the different in your country?

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#70

Post by tathougies » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:31 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #53

coredog64 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have the right to publish anything you like without fear of retribution from the government or anybody else. In the US, 1st amendment freedoms only protect against government retribution. There is nothing stopping someone from misinterpreting a tweet and getting you fired, nor is there anything to prevent someone digging up what causes you support outside of work and using that as cause to harass your employer…

While true, you are protected from some types of retribution from others. For example, someone cannot kill or rob you because you express an opinion in defiance of the political or religious leadership.

You are protected from that regardless of whether you have freedom of speech.

For example, it is illegal to murder an convicted felon serving time in prison, even though such a person doesn't have the same guarantee of freedom of speech.