Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue • Hacker News Board

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#51

Post by jakebasile » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:08 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #42

thinkmilitant wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, free speech can be very dangerous. People use it to mobilize others to truly evil acts. But freedoms have always been dangerous. I think they are worth the risk.

The risk is mass murder. Nazis have murdered over 200 people in the last two decades alone in Germany. In Chechenya, only two days ago homophobes murdered at the very least three homosexual people, arrested over a hundred - and credible activists fear for much worse numbers. Fascist and reactionary ideologies always lead to death.

How many people are killed by the Islamic state? I don't think they have strong free speech protection there.

Free speech and evil are not causal links.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#52

Post by cookiecaper » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:10 PM UTC

gdulli wrote: post #19

Banthum wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but let's make that even more general. No need to limit that to "real journalists", since then you're just asking for people to build an ivory tower and use it as a power base for control of "non-real" "journalists". Everyone needs to be free to speak their minds. Freedom of speech is for everyone.

We're at a precarious time in history when journalism is being used particularly effectively as an intentional disinformation tool. "Real journalism" unfortunately does need to be distinguished. Free speech doesn't encompass fraud.

>Free speech doesn't encompass fraud.

Indeed it doesn't, which is why fraud has been illegal since the foundation of the country.

Is "disinformation" the same as fraud? Who shall decide what constitutes "intentional disinformation" and what doesn't, and at what point it rises to fraudulence? We already have laws that address these questions -- how do you suggest modifying them?

If we're using the election as a meter of the impact of this "disinformation", and, obviously we are, since the moral panic over "fake news" was a propaganda campaign to respond to Clinton's loss, it would seem that the country is pretty split over whose information is credible, and which side is perpetrating a fraud.

Let people decide and listen to the sources that they find credible. Why is the market not good enough? Is it because you don't like the decisions people make when they're free to select their own sources of truth?

How long until I should expect to see you at church, pulling the minister away from the pulpit to correct his "disinformation"? Wait -- don't answer that.

How can we have any freedom once we go down this road? It goes right back to the old ways of "might makes right". Whomever has the most power at the time will be able to decree some speech "fraud" and "disinformation" and punish people for speaking ideas that are too dangerous to entrust to the hoi polloi.

You know that in restrictive regimes, they don't go around saying "It's great living in a non-free country." They go around saying "We are free here, we just don't allow evil men to defraud the people with lies".

Ultimately, I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. Just gotta watch it to make sure nothing you believe ever shifts out from under you and becomes "hate speech", "disinformation", or, plainly, "fraud" without your realizing it.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#53

Post by cookiecaper » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:14 PM UTC

coredog64 wrote: post #28

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minor nit: where I live, we have freedom of the press. We do not have a special class of people called journalists. You have the right to publish anything you like without fear of retribution from the government or anybody else. This, along with the freedom to assemble, allows minority opinions to flourish through peaceful persuasion. It also allows sunlight into actions of criminals and the government. The crime aga…

> You have the right to publish anything you like without fear of retribution from the government or anybody else. In the US, 1st amendment freedoms only protect against government retribution. There is nothing stopping someone from misinterpreting a tweet and getting you fired, nor is there anything to prevent someone digging up what causes you support outside of work and using that as cause to harass your employer…

While true, you are protected from some types of retribution from others. For example, someone cannot kill or rob you because you express an opinion in defiance of the political or religious leadership.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#54

Post by duncan_bayne » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:16 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #25

function_seven wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You tell me what your model speech code would look like, and I'll show you how I could use it to shut your speech down within a decade.

I generally agree with this point of view, but a look into history (you don't even have to go back to Hitler or Stalin - the last 10 years should be enough!) proves that "free speech without limits" as done in the US is a path to disaster. For what its worth, there are not small groups of people running around with Hakenkreuz flags and SS uniforms in the US. A dishonor to all the victims of the Third Reich. Please do…

You seem fairly free with your criticism of American free speech, considering _they_ didn't birth Mussolini, Hitler or Stalin.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#55

Post by sctb » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:16 PM UTC

benley wrote: post #14

No offense (really), but I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you're a guy, because ... * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/11/women-onl... * http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2016/07/29/femini... * https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22429996-000-the-figh... * http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3454588/Women-game...

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14027330 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#56

Post by gph » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:16 PM UTC

telesilla wrote: post #11

I truly love the country of México - I have spent a large periods of time there for the climate, as a place to work and have a wonderful life, away from the chills of winter. I often thought about making a permanent relocation, but this terror is too real and I found myself living in constant anxiety of my friends and colleagues being in danger, and the fear of speaking your mind weighs on you after a while. I am sad…

>may things improve for you, though I really have no idea how that will happen.

I think a good first step would be changing attitudes towards drug use. We should treat users as patients instead of criminals. And waging a 'war' against dealers and smugglers has only made them more violent and dangerous, while driving up prices and making those who survive even wealthier. There needs to be smarter policies.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#57

Post by self-diversity » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:17 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #37

Trumps goons are hunting immigrants as we write here. Trump supporters regularly beat up people of color. Police regularly shoots black people. And Trumps entire team believes climate change is fake news - this alone will lead the US and the world with it into a desaster.

Can you draw any lines between what you've listed and speech issues? I wasn't asking for reasons you hate Donald Trump.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#58

Post by telesilla » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:19 PM UTC

ggregoire wrote: post #24

telesilla wrote: post #11

I truly love the country of México - I have spent a large periods of time there for the climate, as a place to work and have a wonderful life, away from the chills of winter. I often thought about making a permanent relocation, but this terror is too real and I found myself living in constant anxiety of my friends and colleagues being in danger, and the fear of speaking your mind weighs on you after a while. I am sad…

> I truly love the country of México [...] but this terror is too real and I found myself living in constant anxiety of my friends and colleagues being in danger To be fair with Mexico, those issues don't affect the whole country. Mexico City is pretty safe for example. If you want to travel to Mexico, here is a list of states and cities to avoid: https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings...

My friends are thinkers and challengers of the system: it's for them I am more worried, that they can't speak freely. I could move to Condesa and live a protected life, but that's just colonialism (using my spending power to put a cocoon around me with Uber and private parties). That's not the México I'm interested in. I've also been mugged rather violently there anyway on Calle Amsterdam, (though no worse than Barcelona for example, being in the wrong place or time) and I've had Mexican friends sitting in traffic going to work, having a gun pulled on them for their wallet.

I'm not really sure how safe Mexico City really is, once you get out of the ex-pat bubble.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#59

Post by joemi » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:19 PM UTC

MaxfordAndSons wrote: post #41

arkitaip wrote: post #22

I have nothing but respect for the journalists of Mexico and the incredibly valuable and dangerous job that they do every single day so I hope it doesn't come off as to condescending or uninformed to suggest that journalists wanting to investigate drug cartels and the government should set up underground printing presses. During World War 2 many resistance members did so in countries occupied by the Axis Powers and t…

Blog Del Narco[1] is one such underground source. Of course, some accuse it of falling short of journalistic standards because it filters almost nothing, and so has often been used as a de facto PR outlet for numerous cartels. Even so, one of its founders is believed to have been murdered in 2013, and the other was forced to leave Mexico permanently. [1] http://www.blogdelnarco.com/

Similar situation with Narco News[1] (though I know nothing of its journalistic standards)... I had a friend who was working for them in Mexico about 15 years ago, and he ended up quitting and leaving the country after a co-worker was killed.

[1]http://www.narconews.com/

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#60

Post by Brendinooo » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 10:20 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #25

function_seven wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You tell me what your model speech code would look like, and I'll show you how I could use it to shut your speech down within a decade.

I generally agree with this point of view, but a look into history (you don't even have to go back to Hitler or Stalin - the last 10 years should be enough!) proves that "free speech without limits" as done in the US is a path to disaster. For what its worth, there are not small groups of people running around with Hakenkreuz flags and SS uniforms in the US. A dishonor to all the victims of the Third Reich. Please do…

>there are not small groups of people running around with Hakenkreuz flags and SS uniforms in the US

How 'not small', particularly in relation to a nation of over 300 million people?

>Please do not tell me you find this acceptable in any way.

I do not find such content acceptable in any way. But freedom of assembly and speech is baked into the United States' DNA, and rightfully so. Take a look at the Skokie case[0] - offensive stuff, but the ACLU stuck up for them anyways, and it ended up setting a legal precedent in the Supreme Court.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union...