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Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

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Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#21

Post by geofft »

mschuster91 wrote: post #17
caiob wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And "Freedom of Speech" is a broad term, with a wide variety of implications. Freedom of speech also means being able to channel ideas that aren't as popular and most of the mainstream media may not agree with. People should be able to express those ideas as well.

> People should be able to express those ideas as well No. There is no place in the world for antisemitism, homophobia or other right-extremist views. These "opinions" are direct threats to people. And when the state, as it often does, fails to protect the marginalized, then in my opinion nearly anything is acceptable to stop these "opinions" from being expressed. We in Germany already have seen what happens when you…

I agree with you, but I am worried that antisemitism, homophobia, and bigotry in general is the sort of thing that crops up on its own; it can't be eliminated by silencing it. Post-war Germany for instance attempted to suppress Nazism, but it's still around 70 years later.

I am totally willing to accept the theory that Germany did not suppress Nazism enough, but I'm worried that's not actually the answer.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#22

Post by arkitaip »

I have nothing but respect for the journalists of Mexico and the incredibly valuable and dangerous job that they do every single day so I hope it doesn't come off as to condescending or uninformed to suggest that journalists wanting to investigate drug cartels and the government should set up underground printing presses. During World War 2 many resistance members did so in countries occupied by the Axis Powers and they were able to print and distribute their newspapers out under the most dangerous conditions imaginable [1][2].

Of course, in 2017 it's easier to set up a clandestine press organization using the internet, but I'm certain that there are many valuable lessons to learn from WW2.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_press

[2] https://warpress.cegesoma.be/en/node/13

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#23

Post by metaphorm »

benley wrote: post #14

No offense (really), but I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you're a guy, because ... * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/11/women-onl... * http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2016/07/29/femini... * https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22429996-000-the-figh... * http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3454588/Women-game...

why would you say "no offense" except to precede posting something offensive? I think you meant to offend.

do mean tweets count as death threats in the same way that international drug cartel kidnapping your sister does?

can I add that I'm offended that you're conflating the two? please don't do that. it seems like you're making light of the real violence going on in Mexico, and also promoting a biased and unfair narrative that makes women seem much weaker and more helpless than they actually are.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#24

Post by ggregoire »

telesilla wrote: post #11

I truly love the country of México - I have spent a large periods of time there for the climate, as a place to work and have a wonderful life, away from the chills of winter. I often thought about making a permanent relocation, but this terror is too real and I found myself living in constant anxiety of my friends and colleagues being in danger, and the fear of speaking your mind weighs on you after a while. I am sad…

> I truly love the country of México [...] but this terror is too real and I found myself living in constant anxiety of my friends and colleagues being in danger

To be fair with Mexico, those issues don't affect the whole country. Mexico City is pretty safe for example.

If you want to travel to Mexico, here is a list of states and cities to avoid: https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings...

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#25

Post by mschuster91 »

function_seven wrote: post #20
mschuster91 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People should be able to express those ideas as well No. There is no place in the world for antisemitism, homophobia or other right-extremist views. These "opinions" are direct threats to people. And when the state, as it often does, fails to protect the marginalized, then in my opinion nearly anything is acceptable to stop these "opinions" from being expressed. We in Germany already have seen what happens when you…

You tell me what your model speech code would look like, and I'll show you how I could use it to shut your speech down within a decade.

I generally agree with this point of view, but a look into history (you don't even have to go back to Hitler or Stalin - the last 10 years should be enough!) proves that "free speech without limits" as done in the US is a path to disaster.

For what its worth, there are not small groups of people running around with Hakenkreuz flags and SS uniforms in the US. A dishonor to all the victims of the Third Reich. Please do not tell me you find this acceptable in any way.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#26

Post by coredog64 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #17
caiob wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And "Freedom of Speech" is a broad term, with a wide variety of implications. Freedom of speech also means being able to channel ideas that aren't as popular and most of the mainstream media may not agree with. People should be able to express those ideas as well.

> People should be able to express those ideas as well No. There is no place in the world for antisemitism, homophobia or other right-extremist views. These "opinions" are direct threats to people. And when the state, as it often does, fails to protect the marginalized, then in my opinion nearly anything is acceptable to stop these "opinions" from being expressed. We in Germany already have seen what happens when you…

e.g. I can tolerate anything but the out group?

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything...

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#27

Post by chrismealy »

benley wrote: post #14

No offense (really), but I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you're a guy, because ... * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/11/women-onl... * http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2016/07/29/femini... * https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22429996-000-the-figh... * http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3454588/Women-game...

http://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/3/17/14950296/sexism-na...

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#28

Post by coredog64 »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #9
digitalmaster wrote: post #2

This is why real journalist need to be protected regardless where you stand on the issues. It's a pillar of democracy for a very important reason.

Minor nit: where I live, we have freedom of the press. We do not have a special class of people called journalists. You have the right to publish anything you like without fear of retribution from the government or anybody else. This, along with the freedom to assemble, allows minority opinions to flourish through peaceful persuasion. It also allows sunlight into actions of criminals and the government. The crime aga…

> You have the right to publish anything you like without fear of retribution from the government or anybody else.

In the US, 1st amendment freedoms only protect against government retribution. There is nothing stopping someone from misinterpreting a tweet and getting you fired, nor is there anything to prevent someone digging up what causes you support outside of work and using that as cause to harass your employer into firing you.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#29

Post by tanderson92 »

gdulli wrote: post #19
Banthum wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but let's make that even more general. No need to limit that to "real journalists", since then you're just asking for people to build an ivory tower and use it as a power base for control of "non-real" "journalists". Everyone needs to be free to speak their minds. Freedom of speech is for everyone.

We're at a precarious time in history when journalism is being used particularly effectively as an intentional disinformation tool. "Real journalism" unfortunately does need to be distinguished. Free speech doesn't encompass fraud.

Does the constitution list fraud as an exception to the free speech provisions?

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#30

Post by benley »

metaphorm wrote: post #23
benley wrote: post #14

No offense (really), but I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you're a guy, because ... * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/11/women-onl... * http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2016/07/29/femini... * https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22429996-000-the-figh... * http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3454588/Women-game...

why would you say "no offense" except to precede posting something offensive? I think you meant to offend. do mean tweets count as death threats in the same way that international drug cartel kidnapping your sister does? can I add that I'm offended that you're conflating the two? please don't do that. it seems like you're making light of the real violence going on in Mexico, and also promoting a biased and unfair nar…

You're right, it is not the same thing, and I don't mean to imply that the two are equivalent. Just that we already live in a place where people feel unsafe as a consequence of posting things online.
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