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Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

nytimes.com

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Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#41

Post by MaxfordAndSons »

arkitaip wrote: post #22

I have nothing but respect for the journalists of Mexico and the incredibly valuable and dangerous job that they do every single day so I hope it doesn't come off as to condescending or uninformed to suggest that journalists wanting to investigate drug cartels and the government should set up underground printing presses. During World War 2 many resistance members did so in countries occupied by the Axis Powers and t…

Blog Del Narco[1] is one such underground source. Of course, some accuse it of falling short of journalistic standards because it filters almost nothing, and so has often been used as a de facto PR outlet for numerous cartels. Even so, one of its founders is believed to have been murdered in 2013, and the other was forced to leave Mexico permanently.

[1]http://www.blogdelnarco.com/

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#42

Post by mschuster91 »

thinkmilitant wrote: post #35
mschuster91 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People should be able to express those ideas as well No. There is no place in the world for antisemitism, homophobia or other right-extremist views. These "opinions" are direct threats to people. And when the state, as it often does, fails to protect the marginalized, then in my opinion nearly anything is acceptable to stop these "opinions" from being expressed. We in Germany already have seen what happens when you…

You are right, free speech can be very dangerous. People use it to mobilize others to truly evil acts. But freedoms have always been dangerous. I think they are worth the risk.

The risk is mass murder. Nazis have murdered over 200 people in the last two decades alone in Germany.

In Chechenya, only two days ago homophobes murdered at the very least three homosexual people, arrested over a hundred - and credible activists fear for much worse numbers.

Fascist and reactionary ideologies always lead to death.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#43

Post by Sniffnoy »

metaphorm wrote: post #38
benley wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, it is not the same thing, and I don't mean to imply that the two are equivalent. Just that we already live in a place where people feel unsafe as a consequence of posting things online.

and posting things online is not the same thing as writing an article in a local newspaper printed in the town you live in. do you see how the differences are incredibly important here? can you not try to make this conversation about mean tweets and feminism? that just isn't the topic and the comparisons you're making are extremely disrespectful to the Mexican journalists involved.

I think the more relevant distinction here is between feeling unsafe and being unsafe. Or perhaps between feeling unsafe in that you fear that that people will call you names online, versus feeling unsafe in that you fear that people will kill you.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#44

Post by jakebasile »

mschuster91 wrote: post #17
caiob wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And "Freedom of Speech" is a broad term, with a wide variety of implications. Freedom of speech also means being able to channel ideas that aren't as popular and most of the mainstream media may not agree with. People should be able to express those ideas as well.

> People should be able to express those ideas as well No. There is no place in the world for antisemitism, homophobia or other right-extremist views. These "opinions" are direct threats to people. And when the state, as it often does, fails to protect the marginalized, then in my opinion nearly anything is acceptable to stop these "opinions" from being expressed. We in Germany already have seen what happens when you…

You don't beat bad ideas by stifling them, that doesn't work. Beat ideas with better ideas. And once you cede authority over what is ok speech to someone else, you may not continue to agree on that definition.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#45

Post by flatline »

telesilla wrote: post #11

I truly love the country of México - I have spent a large periods of time there for the climate, as a place to work and have a wonderful life, away from the chills of winter. I often thought about making a permanent relocation, but this terror is too real and I found myself living in constant anxiety of my friends and colleagues being in danger, and the fear of speaking your mind weighs on you after a while. I am sad…

I lived there some 20 years ago and it really seemed like a golden time. The conflict in Chiapas was more or less over, and as a foreigner I felt comfortable traveling anywhere in the country with only a US driver's license and a birth certificate. Times have certainly changed, and I can't imagine how it is for Mexicans nowadays living with the cartels.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#46

Post by function_seven »

mschuster91 wrote: post #25
function_seven wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You tell me what your model speech code would look like, and I'll show you how I could use it to shut your speech down within a decade.

I generally agree with this point of view, but a look into history (you don't even have to go back to Hitler or Stalin - the last 10 years should be enough!) proves that "free speech without limits" as done in the US is a path to disaster. For what its worth, there are not small groups of people running around with Hakenkreuz flags and SS uniforms in the US. A dishonor to all the victims of the Third Reich. Please do…

> For what its worth, there are not small groups of people running around with Hakenkreuz flags and SS uniforms in the US. A dishonor to all the victims of the Third Reich. Please do not tell me you find this acceptable in any way.

I absolutely find it acceptable. It's proof that the 1st Amendment is alive and well. Consider these groups as the canaries in a coal mine. As soon as they're shut down, based solely on the content of their ideas, the whole point of free speech is doomed.

You may think that only certain categories of ideas should be protected speech, and strive to enact that into law. But when the political winds change and your ideas become unacceptable, you'll have nothing to stand on when your speech is criminalized.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#47

Post by secfirstmd »

Banthum wrote: post #3
digitalmaster wrote: post #2

This is why real journalist need to be protected regardless where you stand on the issues. It's a pillar of democracy for a very important reason.

Agreed, but let's make that even more general. No need to limit that to "real journalists", since then you're just asking for people to build an ivory tower and use it as a power base for control of "non-real" "journalists". Everyone needs to be free to speak their minds. Freedom of speech is for everyone.

Agreed, also we work and advise many in Mexico who are not what some might call "real journalists" in the sense of working for a newspaper. Many of the people who have been targeted are bloggers, part time activists etc.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#48

Post by alexbecker »

mschuster91 wrote: post #17
caiob wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And "Freedom of Speech" is a broad term, with a wide variety of implications. Freedom of speech also means being able to channel ideas that aren't as popular and most of the mainstream media may not agree with. People should be able to express those ideas as well.

> People should be able to express those ideas as well No. There is no place in the world for antisemitism, homophobia or other right-extremist views. These "opinions" are direct threats to people. And when the state, as it often does, fails to protect the marginalized, then in my opinion nearly anything is acceptable to stop these "opinions" from being expressed. We in Germany already have seen what happens when you…

And who gets the power to decide what's "right-extremist"? You?

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#49

Post by thinkmassive »

mschuster91 wrote: post #42
thinkmilitant wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, free speech can be very dangerous. People use it to mobilize others to truly evil acts. But freedoms have always been dangerous. I think they are worth the risk.

The risk is mass murder. Nazis have murdered over 200 people in the last two decades alone in Germany. In Chechenya, only two days ago homophobes murdered at the very least three homosexual people, arrested over a hundred - and credible activists fear for much worse numbers. Fascist and reactionary ideologies always lead to death.

murder is already illegal
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