Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 435 posts

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#31

Post by mschuster91 »

geofft wrote: post #21
mschuster91 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People should be able to express those ideas as well No. There is no place in the world for antisemitism, homophobia or other right-extremist views. These "opinions" are direct threats to people. And when the state, as it often does, fails to protect the marginalized, then in my opinion nearly anything is acceptable to stop these "opinions" from being expressed. We in Germany already have seen what happens when you…

I agree with you, but I am worried that antisemitism, homophobia, and bigotry in general is the sort of thing that crops up on its own; it can't be eliminated by silencing it. Post-war Germany for instance attempted to suppress Nazism, but it's still around 70 years later. I am totally willing to accept the theory that Germany did not suppress Nazism enough , but I'm worried that's not actually the answer.

Suppress Nazism? Lol that what our governments did after the initial denazification was the exact opposite. The early Secret Service was mainly former NSDAP personnel up until the 70s. Many right-wing groups, including terrorists (NSU! And thst's just one of them), were covertly supported and aided by the Verfassungsschutz (Office for protection of the constitution).

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#32

Post by self-diversity »

mschuster91 wrote: post #25
function_seven wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You tell me what your model speech code would look like, and I'll show you how I could use it to shut your speech down within a decade.

I generally agree with this point of view, but a look into history (you don't even have to go back to Hitler or Stalin - the last 10 years should be enough!) proves that "free speech without limits" as done in the US is a path to disaster. For what its worth, there are not small groups of people running around with Hakenkreuz flags and SS uniforms in the US. A dishonor to all the victims of the Third Reich. Please do…

I've been alive and in the US for well over 10 years, and I pay a lot of attention to speech issues. What proof do you believe shows us to be on a path to disaster? I could agree that there are a lot of people who think their feelings should matter more than expression, but "disaster" seems ridiculously hyperbolic to me.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#33

Post by the_gastropod »

benley wrote: post #14

No offense (really), but I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you're a guy, because ... * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/11/women-onl... * http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2016/07/29/femini... * https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22429996-000-the-figh... * http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3454588/Women-game...

Why bring gender into this? People get death threats in many countries. This is all a far cry from what's happening in the article.

* http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/I-m-a-scientist-who-ha...

* http://www.wlwt.com/article/ncaa-referee-recieves-death-thre...

* http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2016/11/14/racist-th...

* http://abcnews4.com/news/walter-scott-shooting/man-who-recor...

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#35

Post by thinkmilitant »

mschuster91 wrote: post #17
caiob wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And "Freedom of Speech" is a broad term, with a wide variety of implications. Freedom of speech also means being able to channel ideas that aren't as popular and most of the mainstream media may not agree with. People should be able to express those ideas as well.

> People should be able to express those ideas as well No. There is no place in the world for antisemitism, homophobia or other right-extremist views. These "opinions" are direct threats to people. And when the state, as it often does, fails to protect the marginalized, then in my opinion nearly anything is acceptable to stop these "opinions" from being expressed. We in Germany already have seen what happens when you…

You are right, free speech can be very dangerous. People use it to mobilize others to truly evil acts.

But freedoms have always been dangerous. I think they are worth the risk.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#36

Post by microcolonel »

tanderson92 wrote: post #29
gdulli wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're at a precarious time in history when journalism is being used particularly effectively as an intentional disinformation tool. "Real journalism" unfortunately does need to be distinguished. Free speech doesn't encompass fraud.

Does the constitution list fraud as an exception to the free speech provisions?

The speech itself is protected, but speech can be deemed a tort in a civil proceeding, regardless. Freedom of speech protects opinions and best-effort reporting of facts, not necessarily all speech. Granted, we have to be careful not to exclude too much from protected speech, or we will never have the right again. The canonical example is causing panic with malice of intent, such as yelling fire!, fire!, fire! in a crowded hall, knowing well that there is no fire and with the intent is to cause a trampling hazard.

Fraud usually has to do with commercial statute (in the U.S., the UCC), where misrepresenting goods is grounds for a civil dispute.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#37

Post by mschuster91 »

Trumps goons are hunting immigrants as we write here. Trump supporters regularly beat up people of color. Police regularly shoots black people.

And Trumps entire team believes climate change is fake news - this alone will lead the US and the world with it into a desaster.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#38

Post by metaphorm »

benley wrote: post #30
metaphorm wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why would you say "no offense" except to precede posting something offensive? I think you meant to offend. do mean tweets count as death threats in the same way that international drug cartel kidnapping your sister does? can I add that I'm offended that you're conflating the two? please don't do that. it seems like you're making light of the real violence going on in Mexico, and also promoting a biased and unfair nar…

You're right, it is not the same thing, and I don't mean to imply that the two are equivalent. Just that we already live in a place where people feel unsafe as a consequence of posting things online.

and posting things online is not the same thing as writing an article in a local newspaper printed in the town you live in.

do you see how the differences are incredibly important here? can you not try to make this conversation about mean tweets and feminism? that just isn't the topic and the comparisons you're making are extremely disrespectful to the Mexican journalists involved.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#39

Post by gozur88 »

gdulli wrote: post #19
Banthum wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but let's make that even more general. No need to limit that to "real journalists", since then you're just asking for people to build an ivory tower and use it as a power base for control of "non-real" "journalists". Everyone needs to be free to speak their minds. Freedom of speech is for everyone.

We're at a precarious time in history when journalism is being used particularly effectively as an intentional disinformation tool. "Real journalism" unfortunately does need to be distinguished. Free speech doesn't encompass fraud.

Once you give the government control over what constitutes "fraud", you can kiss your freedom to speak goodbye. Every totalitarian state in history suppressed (or suppresses) speech in the name of controlling disinformation.

Re: Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue

#40

Post by amalcon »

tanderson92 wrote: post #29
gdulli wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're at a precarious time in history when journalism is being used particularly effectively as an intentional disinformation tool. "Real journalism" unfortunately does need to be distinguished. Free speech doesn't encompass fraud.

Does the constitution list fraud as an exception to the free speech provisions?

I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, etc.

Assuming you mean the Mexican constitution, it's kind of vague:

Article 6 . The expression of ideas shall not be subject to any judicial or administrative investigation, unless it offends good morals, infringes the rights of others, incites to crime, or disturbs the public order.

"Offends good morals" is not defined anywhere, so it's up to interpretation whether that includes fraud. "Infringes the rights of others" is defined in various places, but in similarly vague terms.

Post reply on HN