Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#401

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 9:10 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #193

Spooky23 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market makes mistakes over value all of the time. Look at the sad tale of post-bankruptcy Kmart, and how they used hype, valuation and newly available credit to gobble up Sears. Predicable trainwreck ensued. Tesla is alike and different. They have an amazing management team, Apple-like religious fervor/hype machine, but a marginal product category. Their continued growth is only possible as long as they can convi…

Interesting comment. I'd say that the way they are convincing the public is with a very well engineered product line that is also a big fuck-you to big-oil. The only people that like big-oil are the people who work for and profit off big oil. Musks empire is growing in ways ford could only dream of. People love the machines they make. Ford can add body stylings all they want, but they can't match tesla or spacex or s…

Most people don't care about sending a "fuck you" to anyone. They just want a car.

When electric has a positive ROI, it will be just another drivetrain from Ford.

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#402

Post by neom » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 9:12 PM UTC

mhermher wrote: post #231

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is like comparing a spunky startup to an entrenched corporation. Ya, IBM once spent more than Facebook, but Facebook was worth more because it had potential while IBM didn't. Ford doesn't have any good ideas for the future, they are too busy with the here and now and haven't shown an ability to do anything but incremental improvements with their R&D spending. Like we don't expect much more from IBM, we don't expec…

"Ford doesn't have any good ideas for the future..." I think you just don't read about it because you don't care about Ford, but you read about it for Tesla. And it's not entirely your fault; there is definitely publication bias as well. Here is an article from literally today: https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/03/ford-tops-the-list-of-auto...

Truth. I sat down with Ford exec group last week (Fontinalis is an investor in the company I work for) and they explained all their ideas. Most of them are excellent, very few of them are related directly to cars, and I don't expect they will start talking about them for quite some time. Long Ford. :)

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#403

Post by aerovistae » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 9:15 PM UTC

dan1234 wrote: post #2

Interesting, but market cap isn’t everything - FTA: "While Tesla’s market capitalization has swelled in size, Ford still overshadows the Palo Alto, California-based company in most other financial metrics. Over the last five years, Ford has posted net income totaling $26 billion, while Tesla has lost $2.3 billion. Last year, Ford had annual revenue of $151.8 billion compared with Tesla’s $7 billion. And when it comes…

Are you arguing that people would be better off investing in Ford? Because if not, I don't really see the point of always trotting out the fact that 100 year old auto-makers have a larger manufacturing base than new ones. Seems obvious. "People in their 30s, on average, are taller than people in elementary school!" Whoa, really??!!!

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#404

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 9:15 PM UTC

dan1234 wrote: post #2

Interesting, but market cap isn’t everything - FTA: "While Tesla’s market capitalization has swelled in size, Ford still overshadows the Palo Alto, California-based company in most other financial metrics. Over the last five years, Ford has posted net income totaling $26 billion, while Tesla has lost $2.3 billion. Last year, Ford had annual revenue of $151.8 billion compared with Tesla’s $7 billion. And when it comes…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#405

Post by neom » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 9:16 PM UTC

I would say Tesla is chasing it's valuation, Ford earned it's valuation.

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#406

Post by PinguTS » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 9:16 PM UTC

tbabb wrote: post #369

username223 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The automobile industry will contract as we move from individual ownership to mobility. What does this even mean? People like to leave stuff in their cars (e.g. mug, gym bag). They like them to be at their preferred level of cleanliness or disorder. Some even use them as a means of personal expression. If "mobility" were so desirable, ZipCar would have taken off 10 years ago. The "mobility" market will be about the…

> The "mobility" market will be about the size of the taxi, bus, and train market. - A personal, individual vehicle which comes to pick you up where you are and take you to exactly where you want to go is a much MUCH higher value proposition than public transit. - Add self-driving to the mix, and the cost of that service will plummet. - When the car providing that service can drive itself, then there is little to no…

The funny thing, some of this already exists these days. It is called ZipCar, Car2Go, or DriveNow. All of them suffer from the very same problem: service.

It does not matter if a car is selfdriving or not. To be recognized as available by someone means a utilization of about 30% by the providing company. But a utilization of about 30% does not drive down costs. You still of costs for producing and servicing the vehicle, which is way higher than just the energy costs.

Tesla has no experience in free floating vehilce fleets. Uber has no experience in such thing. ZipCar has. Car2Go has. Car2Go as an subsidary of Daimler even has experience in car production.

Now think of that.

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#407

Post by Judgmentality » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 9:18 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #392

emodendroket wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's so easy to solve why don't you share the solution?

I did. I literally did share a solution in this post, and the one before. - Commoditize storage and transport it to you on demand - Offer pet friendly cars Boom. Solved . As I also wrote: "I'm sure you could come up with a better solution if you tried." Is this hackernews, where builders come to talk about exciting ways they're solving tomorrow's problems? Am I on the wrong site?

Do you have any evidence that either of those will make money? I have evidence that pet friendly cars lose money - Uber used to have a program that catered towards dogs and they cancelled it because it lost money.

You haven't solved anything until you've demonstrated a working solution. If it were so easy to fix problems in the real world, politicians would have our economy constantly booming, there would be more jobs than people, and the Middle East would be the most peaceful place on Earth.

Anyway, I don't think we're going to agree on anything. I'm exiting this thread.

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#408

Post by barkingcat » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 9:19 PM UTC

crabasa wrote: post #57

dan1234 wrote: post #2

Interesting, but market cap isn’t everything - FTA: "While Tesla’s market capitalization has swelled in size, Ford still overshadows the Palo Alto, California-based company in most other financial metrics. Over the last five years, Ford has posted net income totaling $26 billion, while Tesla has lost $2.3 billion. Last year, Ford had annual revenue of $151.8 billion compared with Tesla’s $7 billion. And when it comes…

> Over the last five years, Ford has posted net income totaling $26 billion, while Tesla has lost $2.3 billion. Ford: "We have no idea how to invest this money. I guess let's just put it in the bank." Tesla: "We have so many idea for investments, we're only constrained by cash. Let's go back to the capital markets!"

Uh ... Ford issues dividends so that money is distributed out to shareowners, many of whom are part of the Ford family.

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#409

Post by kpil » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 9:23 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #377

Judgmentality wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people just like owning cars. I live in San Francisco and don't currently own a car, but I want one. Perfect example where Uber fails - I can't take my dog anywhere. Different people have different values. Also I'm quite young, so I don't think age is a strict delineation.

"Some people just like owning cars." Yes I did point out that most Americans and many people are conditioned from birth to value car ownership, even when it's a poor financial decision. "Perfect example where Uber fails - I can't take my dog anywhere As I told the other guy: Stop predicting failure based on problems, put on your creator and builder hat, and solve the problem. Why not have pet friendly vehicles availa…

I think that most people are hardwired from start to value ownership of things.

You might have noticed that people are hoarding a lot of stuff, that are of little value to them. It's probably an intrinsic value to most people to own things. It might vary a little between cultures, but it seems to be a common trait.

If you don't - great for you.

However. It might happen that you one day walk by a car on display in a mall, and notices the nice paint, a practical laptop holder, the particularly nice storage boxes for diapers and what not, and thinks to yourself - "I want that car."

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#410

Post by elihu » Mon, Apr 03, 2017, 9:24 PM UTC

wang_li wrote: post #371

Certhas wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 's valuation is also based on the idea that clean energy will replace fossil fuels. Last month Tesla sold 10,000 electric vehicles to Fords 2,500. If we are serious about climate change, then sometime in the 2030s [1] we have to stop building new combustion engines. The entire technology platform on which these 6,7 million Ford sales rest is about to be swapped out in little over a decade. [1] https://arstechnica.c…

> If we are serious about climate change, then sometime in the 2030s [1] we have to stop building new combustion engines. Or there might be a breakthrough in carbon capture, converting atmospheric CO2 into petroleum and we can drive combustion engines forever. CO2 capture is an area of active research and it's entirely possible that advances there will make Tesla and Solar City moot.

Effective CO2 capture might cause governments to not mandate a certain number of electric vehicles or provide tax credits for buyers or impose a carbon tax, but if electric vehicles are better and (eventually) cheaper to manufacture than gas vehicles, then people might still prefer electric to gas even without environmental motivation.