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Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

bloomberg.com

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Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#211

Post by karpodiem »

This is a perfect slice of Americana here.

I can't find a number through Google but the number of Ford Hourly/Salaried employees has to be over 125,000. As a guess.

Tesla has 30,000 hourly/salary employees.

Despite being valued 'less' Ford has a huge economic impact for many peoples lives. This may decline, over time, but don't be surprised if Ford/GM/Chrysler combine forces for a huge battery factory of their own. Their ability to tap capital markets with lower interest rates than Tesla is a competitive advantage. They also move many more vehicles than Tesla and get better prices from suppliers, which is a competitive advantage.

Tesla's gambit with batteries is either going to work or will offer a fantastic opportunity to pickup a battery factory at a good price.

At the of the day, when all major automotive companies have EV vehicles, what's going to differentiate them? The accuracy of the self driving software? Entertainment options within the vehicle? Serious question.

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#212

Post by mikeash »

giarc wrote: post #176
mikeash wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally. Just look at the ridiculous valuations here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble#List_of_compani... On the other hand, there were some major successes as well. Amazon got its start in the bubble and is now gigantic. eBay is doing great. So is PayPal (which is relevant here, since without PayPal we wouldn't have Tesla). Sometimes these ridiculous valuations are completely unjustified, but sometimes t…

Cherry picking a piece or two from your link. >Books-a-Million - Saw its stock >VA Linux - .... They set the record for largest first-day IPO price gain; after the price was set at $30/share, it ended the first day of trading at $239.25/share, a 698% gain (9 December 1999) I don't think we are quite in the situation where valuations are based on updated websites. Nowadays it seems like monthly active users drives val…

Agreed. During the dot-com bubble it seems like a lot of stock was driven by abject cluelessness and investors' perceived need to get in on any stock with .com in it.

These days, it's more like excessive optimism. People actually understand this stuff, at least vaguely, and if they're getting it wrong it's just because they don't see the downsides.

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#213

Post by syncsynchalt »

giarc wrote: post #169
strombofulous wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think solar is a hockey stick? I'm not saying you're wrong it's just the first time I've heard this before.

Government subsidies probably. My provincial government (Alberta) just introduced $40 million in solar subsidies. I don't think Solar City operates in AB, but I'm sure other states will come up with similar subsidies to replace the federal one that I believe is expiring.

And when the price undercuts other forms of power generation, you won't even need subsidies anymore. I'm guessing it'll be a while before this is true in latitudes like Alberta, though.

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#215

Post by elif »

Avshalom wrote: post #151
stellar678 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why Ford is unlikely to succeed at pivoting into the electric car market. The power and pull inside their company doesn't want them to. It will take superhuman leadership to overcome that force.

An electric f150 is kind of the dream actually. Electric is great for fleet vehicles and it has all the low end torque your frame can handle. Plus trucks have plenty of space to put batteries, under the bed, between the bed and the cab, that can be nice and rectangular. Electric drive train means more effective ground clearance for a given ride height too because you don't need a drive shaft or exhaust. Regenerative…

I'll take all that weight on the rear axle of my RWD ranger any day. 98% of the time i have nothing substantial and have to take care not to burnout.

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#216

Post by mvpu »

gph wrote: post #205
mvpu wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't predict numbers but some obvious integration points are... a) on the hardware side a solar panel customer could also buy the power wall (natural extension) and car, which can yield very high LTV per consumer; b) on the services side a fully autonomous ride sharing means low operating cost; c) if Solar City continues to lease out the panels then Tesla could become the biggest solar powered grid network on the pl…

I just don't see a) as happening much. If there are cheaper solar panel or electric cars available I don't see the point in a consumer not going with the competition. Unless Tesla intentionally makes it hard to integrate competitors solar panels into their power walls/cars, which would likely land them in some anti-competitive/monopoly troubles in a number of jurisdictions.

Possible.. interesting thing to note is that home owners are more inclined to lease panels than buy them (so retail cost doesn't matter much it appears). SolarCity really took off after it started offering the 0 down lease. If that trend continues, Tesla could potentially offer a blanket $x/month for energy production and $y/month for consumption (cars) and lock people in. We know panel cost and batter cost will go down over time, so the game is likely in selling experiences not entities..

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#217

Post by gozur88 »

dan1234 wrote: post #2

Interesting, but market cap isn’t everything - FTA: "While Tesla’s market capitalization has swelled in size, Ford still overshadows the Palo Alto, California-based company in most other financial metrics. Over the last five years, Ford has posted net income totaling $26 billion, while Tesla has lost $2.3 billion. Last year, Ford had annual revenue of $151.8 billion compared with Tesla’s $7 billion. And when it comes…

Isn't that the point, though? That Tesla's market cap can really only be justified by making the rosiest assumptions?

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#218

Post by blawson »

samstave wrote: post #185
petra wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also ford is investing in on-demand shuttles service, offered at low cost, and expanding to 8 cities this year. Executed well this could become very popular.

More info on this please

https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/09/fords-chariot-ride-sharing...

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#219

Post by TFortunato »

jnicholasp wrote: post #196
youngtaff wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford have also been quite innovative in the engine department building small volume turbo charged engines for greater efficiency and lower emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EcoBoost_engine

Being innovative at small details of existing concepts isn't likely to produce huge gains in stock value, as opposed to being innovative at entire categories of new industry- and infrastructure-disrupting products. Ford does the former, Tesla does the latter, and the market is valuing them accordingly. The market could be wrong, Tesla could fail to achieve their vision, Ford and other existing big companies could som…

Maybe that's part of it. I'm sure another part of it is that Ford is already big enough, that there isn't a lot of growth potential there.

That said, it's not like they are exactly just making small refinements to gasoline engines, while SV companies are the only real innovators, chasing electric and self-serving vehicles. We just tend not to talk about it as much on HN (compared to Tesla, for example):

https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2017/01/03/ford-new...

Re: Tesla Passes Ford by Market Value

#220

Post by Symbiote »

maxerickson wrote: post #30
stellar678 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why Ford is unlikely to succeed at pivoting into the electric car market. The power and pull inside their company doesn't want them to. It will take superhuman leadership to overcome that force.

The electric Focus is competitive with the Nissan Leaf, at least on paper. I think the economics aren't really there yet for them to bother with an electric platform (vs retrofitting electric drive into an existing platform). If they thought it made sense, they would be able to be producing at large volumes in a few years.

The EU has fleet CO₂ emission limits; cars and vans which produce more CO₂ than the regulated amount have a 'tax' that the manufacturer must pay.

That's an incentive not only to produce an electric car, but to produce one that people buy instead of buying petrol/diesel cars.

https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehicles/cars_...

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