How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive • Hacker News Board

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#171

Post by cookiecaper » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 7:37 PM UTC

Dobbs wrote: post #143

redsummer wrote: post #131

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to…

On the other hand Utah has one of the higher suicide rates in the country[1], and leads the country in use of antidepressants[2]. Despite being tongue-in-cheek I think the lesson is not so cut and dry. In my personal, anecdotal experience, a lot of the behavior in Utah is forced to keep up the image of a particular life style. 1: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm 2: http://articles.latimes.com/2…

Statistics about Utah must always be taken with a grain of salt, even larger than is typically appropriate for gross/large-scale generalizations. People know that Utah stats are seen as a proxy for the success and/or failure of Mormonism and will distort findings to accommodate their agenda.

A quick example of this is that after Prop 8 passed in CA, a "study", using data sourced from a single, unnamed "top 10 pay site vendor" was published claiming that Utah had the highest incidence of online porn use in the US. That myth stuck for a while, but PornHub started releasing state-by-state traffic reports on its blog and have repeatedly and clearly debunked it. By those numbers, Utah regularly ranks in the bottom 10 states for online porn use.

Regarding depression, Mormon leaders explicitly encourage people to seek mental health treatment if/as necessary, and actively work to destigmatize the use of antidepressants, so increased use in Utah should not be a surprise. Leaders have told them it's OK, so they proceed without the guilt that may be unresolved in other areas.

Just conjecture here, but maybe a correlation between suicide and antidepressant use is a signal that antidepressants are inadequate and/or, at least in some cases, potentially counterproductive, rather than a signal that the populace is less happy vs. the baseline.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#172

Post by jernfrost » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 7:39 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #135

philipodonnell wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, conservatives tend to regard poverty as a self-inflicted state, or at least that remaining in poverty is a failing of the individual by not escaping it, and thus addressing poverty should be left to that individual. Liberals think of poverty more as a systematic social condition that individuals bear little responsibility for, either getting there or remaining there, and thus addressing poverty should be…

That is the usual narrative, but conservatives contribute more to charity than liberals.

I don't think that is given. My home country Norway is mainly liberal but we give a lot to charity.

But as a liberal myself, I don't really favor charity. I favor government solutions. I'd rather pay more taxes than pay to a charity directly.

The problem I see with charity is that (1) they can't provide comprehensive solutions, (2) vulnerable to the free rider problem, (3) inefficient as much resources needs to be spent collecting donations.

By comprehensive solution I mean that a lot of poverty is caused by complex set of factors. E.g. the person might lack job skills and have a mental health problem. Thus they need mental health care and a job training program. Putting together something like that is something a modern welfare state is quite capable of doing, while charity doesn't really have a solution. Charity is for giving you food when you are hungry or giving your emergency care.

Charity is poorly suited for having a long term medical follow up e.g. of high risk groups. E.g. Norway has one of the worlds best statistics for infant mortality. A lot of that is because there are extensive checkups through the pregnancy. Everything related to a pregnancy is completely free. For other health care there is usually a minimum fee. The US in the contrast has terrible infant mortality rate and that is mainly due to poor checkups. Charity in the US has been unable to solve that problem. All they can do is give hungry people food or patch them up.

Charity can't solve systematic problems.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#173

Post by paulddraper » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 7:47 PM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #172

paulddraper wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the usual narrative, but conservatives contribute more to charity than liberals.

I don't think that is given. My home country Norway is mainly liberal but we give a lot to charity. But as a liberal myself, I don't really favor charity. I favor government solutions. I'd rather pay more taxes than pay to a charity directly. The problem I see with charity is that (1) they can't provide comprehensive solutions, (2) vulnerable to the free rider problem, (3) inefficient as much resources needs to be sp…

The problem I see with government welfare programs is that (1) they must provide comprehensive solutions with legal obligations, making the system prone to abuse (2) vulnerable to the "give me everything I want or I'll take it by force" problem (3) inefficient as much resources needs to be spent on re-election, playing politics, and dodging budget cuts.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#174

Post by cookiecaper » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 7:49 PM UTC

amyjess wrote: post #148

redsummer wrote: post #131

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to…

Except that teen suicides in Utah are up. Way up. As in it's tripled in the past decade. And one of the factors is the Mormon church's notorious hostility towards LGBT youth: http://kutv.com/news/local/is-utahs-youth-suicide-rate-linke... Utah has the 5th highest teen suicide rate in the country: https://www.equalityutah.org/issues/lgbt-youth More: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-knoll/is-the-recent-r... http:…

As far as churches go, the Mormon church does not have "notorious hostility" toward LGBT persons, and does everything it can to give hope to youth who feel they may be part of that group.

It is true that Mormons maintain a doctrine that forbids homosexual behavior. Other than giving that up, they've done everything they can to be welcoming and accepting of gay people, regularly encouraging members to be civil, kind, and sympathetic to those who engage in homosexual behavior, despite disagreements with reference to the propriety of the conduct.

Gay people can and do attend church services, and are included in church activities insofar as their personal compliance with worthiness standards allows. The Church has emphasized repeatedly that homosexual proclivities or temptations themselves are not sinful.

Gay couples even attend church as couples, and the congregation is expected to be warm and non-judgmental.

See https://mormonandgay.lds.org/ .

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#175

Post by jernfrost » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 7:50 PM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #144

r00fus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of these views is more factually valid and supported by data.

I would like to see your citations

Actually it is rather obvious, that is HAS to be social structures and not the individual. Look at any statistics about any aspect of a persons life, and it is almost always determined by that persons environment or genes. Evidence from the last years point towards that there is no such thing as free will. Studies show e.g. that we make our decisions way before we are conscious of it. Our rational for the choices we make, are most of the time post-rationalization. We makeup reasons after the choice has been made.

Put a random person from a bad neighborhood in a good one and they will almost always radically improve. You can look at IQ studies, correlation between IQ and genes is very high for a middle class, but very low for the poor. Hence middle class children reach the full potential of their genes while the environment is holding back the poor.

Look at the difference between West-Germany and DDR or North and South Korea. Huge difference in the outcome of each individual, yet it has nothing to do with personal traits but everything to do with the different society structures imposed on the people.

Focusing on the individual instead of society is also rather pointless as one can change society through policy but there is no way of changing an individual directly.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#176

Post by dragonwriter » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #165

lern_too_spel wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can think of the Mormon Church as a second government in Utah that levies a 10% gross income tax on nearly everyone in the state and spends a portion on welfare programs.

A church is not a government. Governments have special powers that churches do not. Because it has those powers, government has an incredible burden to be fair. That doesn't sound so bad, but really limits how effective it can be at many things.

> A church is not a government.

A church can be nothing like a government, very much like a government, a de facto government, or a de jure government.

In practice, relevant to the specific situation at hand, a religion which is both dominant in a region and possessed of a strong centralizee heirarchy often acts a lot like a government, though it's direct sanctions are generally social (though potentially very powerful in effect, including economically) and often also has substantial influence with the formal government.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#177

Post by ScottBurson » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

Dobbs wrote: post #143

redsummer wrote: post #131

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to…

On the other hand Utah has one of the higher suicide rates in the country[1], and leads the country in use of antidepressants[2]. Despite being tongue-in-cheek I think the lesson is not so cut and dry. In my personal, anecdotal experience, a lot of the behavior in Utah is forced to keep up the image of a particular life style. 1: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm 2: http://articles.latimes.com/2…

A joke I heard once is that entering Provo you see a sign: "Have a Nice Day. It's the Law."

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#178

Post by kelukelugames » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 7:59 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #152

tp3z4u wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be a Mormon, my family converted when I was young. At no point did I believe their teachings. Like many cults being required to believe something obviously wrong keeps the normies out and clearly defines who is in the 'in group' and who is in the 'out group'. Just by saying you believe it signals to others that you are willing to lie in order to belong. I really enjoyed my time in the church. There is huge…

"Like many cults being required to believe something obviously wrong keeps the normies out and clearly defines who is in the 'in group' and who is in the 'out group'." Its the same game played with politics instead of religion in academia, "coastal tech", soft sciences, mass media... Under static ruleset conditions, I donno, mid 60s to 2010 "boomer generation" lets say, its sort of an intelligence test to see if you'…

lol, this is comical. White people are not persecuted by a major US political party run by and composed of mostly whites. Sure, some people perceive it so because they have a narrow...argh...different understanding of the world.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#179

Post by kelukelugames » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 8:02 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #30

kelukelugames wrote: post #8

I have a couple of girlfriends who moved to/from Utah from/to a costal city. They think it's backwards as hell.

For future reference, generally your posts are better accepted if you explain the reasoning behind your main point, especially if they are controversial. Controversial posts are generally well received on this site as long as they are logical and thought provoking.

Meh, not really thought provoking. Poll any women or non white person who lived in Utah and has experienced big city life.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#180

Post by mythrwy » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 8:05 PM UTC

redsummer wrote: post #131

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to…

To be fair PT Barnum types from thousands of years ago should be no more believable than PT Barnum types from 150 years ago.