Live data from Hacker News

How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

bloomberg.com

131–140 of 249 posts

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#131
Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah.

The Mormons try harder to keep on the straight and narrow because their religion is less authentic - it's made up by a couple of PT Barnum types, rather than centuries of tradition. You don't need to try hard if you're resting on a thousand years of tradition.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=371&v=7q6brMrFw0E

Perhaps the lesson is that you should join the most absurd religion (or invent your own) and then make up for its absurdity strive to live a good life in order to prove the effectiveness of the religion.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#132
post #72
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it the case with every group with strong identity? Imagine being raised in a long-term Democrat family and declaring that the Tea Party is your thing. (And it's not even about eternal damnation.)

>Isn't it the case with every group with strong identity? It's particularly troublesome in Utah because ~60% of the population is Mormon. It's not difficult to imagine a scenario where you lose your job, or an important supplier relationship because you left the church. Yes, it can happen elsewhere, but there aren't too many places in the US where a single religion is so dominant. It doesn't even have to involve leav…

Every culture has its own baggage, and indeed it is true that some people will make assumptions, or pretend that they're "better Mormons" because they followed more rules. But my experience is that these people are fairly rare.

I'm Mormon and I didn't go on a mission. It comes up rarely, probably not even once a year. Not going on a mission is not necessarily a signal that anything bad happened; some people have health constraints or personal matters that prevent them from serving. Also, tons of people haven't gone on missions, either because they had those types of issues, or they were not practicing around mission age, or the political/economic climate in their country at the time didn't allow it (especially the case around war time), or simply because they were not members of the Church around mission age.

The only sass I've personally received for this is from people, usually people who've left the Church or are on their way out, who've tried to turn it back around on me when I've tried to correct a misconception about our beliefs or teachings.

The Church does not endorse ANY disavowment or disowning of people who fail to practice, change their religious affiliations, etc.

Families are not only advised but expected to remain open and supportive of their family members, whether they go on missions, leave the Church, or whatever. That doesn't mean endorsing behavioral changes that Mormons believe are immoral, it just means not disrespecting or shunning people over such changes. The Church encourages fellowship, not shunning.

Though it's obviously addressed less frequently, the Church would not support someone cutting off a vendor or changing a normal relationship in any way due to changes in religious affiliation.

Many Mormons went through such an affiliation changes themselves when they entered the Church, and endured their own measure of intolerance by doing so. There is no intent to inflict this disrespect and pain on others, regardless of one's personal level of agreement.

This is not to detract from the fact that the Church has significant cultural affects on Utah and that non-members can sometimes feel out of place. Just to clarify that the Church does everything it can to encourage members to be welcoming, supportive, and tolerant. Unfortunately, it won't always work out that way, but that's the goal.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#133
post #93
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Southern Baptism is that dominant in many parts of the South.

Across an entire state or city larger than 100,000 population? (not challenging you...just curious)

Depends. There are some maps around by county.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#134

It seems that a big factor is empathy, something that many politicians don't have. Meanwhile in a few Places in Florida you get arrested if you try to feed the homeless.

> Meanwhile in a few Places in Florida you get arrested if you try to feed the homeless. Can you please provide some source for that? Not that I doubt you, but that is very surprising (and I wonder what could possibly be their reasoning)

It made a lot of headlines in the last few years:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/12/0...

http://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article1253...

http://www.naturalnews.com/047802_feeding_homeless_illegal_c...

And

"In More Than 70 Cities, It's Illegal to Feed the Homeless"

http://blog.lowincome.org/2016/08/more-than-70-cities-illega...

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#135

"Utah is a deep red state, but its conservatism is notably compassionate" Or maybe conservatives are not ruthless towards the poor ?

In general, conservatives tend to regard poverty as a self-inflicted state, or at least that remaining in poverty is a failing of the individual by not escaping it, and thus addressing poverty should be left to that individual. Liberals think of poverty more as a systematic social condition that individuals bear little responsibility for, either getting there or remaining there, and thus addressing poverty should be…

That is the usual narrative, but conservatives contribute more to charity than liberals.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up Mormon in Utah and I love the Mormons in my life. Every leader in local congregations is an unpaid volunteer. Everyone in the congregation has a responsibility to carry out in the community (sunday school teacher, youth mentor, clerk to track finances, etc). As a Mormon kid, I was taught to work hard my whole life for the good of others. I served a Mormon mission in Europe, which was an extremely difficult…

I always wonder about the Mormon missionaries. Did you actually convert anyone? Or is that not even the point?

I was sent to Europe. On one hand, it was an uplifting, wonderful experience. I taught the missionary lessons to very kind people. Three or four of them joined the church. I became extremely close to the other missionaries.

On the other hand, it was an excruciating experience. Common daily routine for me (I followed the missionary handbook with my whole heart): 6:30am: wake up, exercise. 8am: read Book of Mormon and Bible, take notes. 9am: study the scriptures with your companion. 10am: Study the language. 10:30am - 8pm: Proselyting. This consisted of stopping people in the street, knocking on doors, and going to appointments to teach lessons. Since interest in Mormonism is low in Europe, we taught few lessons, so we spent most of our time talking to people in the street and knocking on doors. We spent most of the day facing rejection. We were yelled at probably daily by someone calling us a cult. Once we were interviewed by a local newspaper who wanted to know more about Mormons. The interview went well, but in the article they called us a cult. It was highly discouraging. We weren't allowed to read any non-church material, listen to any non-church music, or watch any movies or television. Internet access was limited 30 minutes per week to email family. You write down goals for how many appointments you will have each week and how many baptisms you will have each month. There was some pressure to get good numbers. (All of this said, I deeply respect Mormonism and do not consider it a cult at all.)

I spent a lot of time writing code with pencil and paper because I missed it. Some of my companions rebuked me for it, but some were compassionate and encouraged it. I often thought about leaving the mission, but there is immense social pressure not to come home early. It can bring shame on you and embarrass your family.

I think Mormon missionaries have a tough life. I love them dearly and always wish them well. It is a difficult situation to be placed in, and many of them behave beautifully and admirably in the face of adversity.

I hope no Mormons here feel that my words are trying to attack them or things they love. I love the Mormon church and find many of its teachings beautiful. However, I'd like to convey what it's like to be Mormon, struggle with the experience, and recognize a desire to follow a different path.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#137
post #72
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it the case with every group with strong identity? Imagine being raised in a long-term Democrat family and declaring that the Tea Party is your thing. (And it's not even about eternal damnation.)

>Isn't it the case with every group with strong identity? It's particularly troublesome in Utah because ~60% of the population is Mormon. It's not difficult to imagine a scenario where you lose your job, or an important supplier relationship because you left the church. Yes, it can happen elsewhere, but there aren't too many places in the US where a single religion is so dominant. It doesn't even have to involve leav…

>It's not difficult to imagine a scenario where you lose your job, or an important supplier relationship because you left the church.

By the same token, it's not difficult to imagine a scenario where you lose your job because you live in, say, NYC, and you broke with the sacred values of the left. E.g. revealed you voted from Trump.

This happens all the time. We see it on the large scale in the media quite regularly (e.g. Palmer Luckey, Brendan Eich, etc).

Moral communities are often pretty much the same, whether secular or religious.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#138

If the american dream means sucking down some of the worst polluted air in the country, then yes SLC is that realized. http://www.sltrib.com/home/4762483-155/utah-will-welcome-201...

You are not wrong, but to bring some context to this: this is not because Utah doesn't care. Since moving to Utah from Florida I've often grumbled at the strict yearly emissions checks. Utah has emissions checks, has very functional public transit, and pushes for reductions.

The primary reason is geographic. SLC is an urban area in a valley, which traps the smog.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#139

I'm a Mormon (grew up in Utah, served a mission in eastern Ukraine, speak Russian fluently, now live in the Bay Area). I often think of the way the Mormon church works as a distributed system, and the way it operates is not unlike most open source software. It works because everyone knows their role, is dedicated, and willing to sacrifice. In the ward (congregation) I'm in now I teach the fourteen-year-olds on Sunday…

I would love to contribute to a system like the one you describe that was not based on fealty to any particular system of belief. That being said, I'd argue that the belief (especially the affinity of shared belief) is totally fundamental to the system at any sort of scale.

My own beliefs [0] are unfortunately not easily evangelized.

[0] https://jimleff.blogspot.com/2013/06/apprecianity.html

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#140

These sorts of comparisons inevitably don't mean much because there's just too many factors that are different between Utah and the states the author compares them to. It helps upward mobility if you start out better off, and Utah has the the fifth richest bottom quintile in the nation (See http://scorecard.assetsandopportunity.org/latest/measure/sta... ) in a place where household expenses and housing costs are prob…

If the result of a successful anti-poverty program is not wealthier people at the bottom, then what is it, with respect to your claim that the result is actually the cause of the anti-poverty program success? What does it mean to "solve poverty" while not having the folks at the bottom have more money?
Post reply on HN