Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 249 posts

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#51

Post by patrickaljord »

ythn wrote: post #40
supremesaboteur wrote: post #25

"Utah is a deep red state, but its conservatism is notably compassionate" Or maybe conservatives are not ruthless towards the poor ?

A lot of progressives think that if you oppose government welfare programs, then you are being "ruthless" (even if you have a different solution in mind)

Not just a lot of progressives, accusing people who oppose "government welfare program to support X" to be against X has been a thing for the left that's been going on for centuries. Frederic Bastiat already said in 1850 in his famous quote:

"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain."

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#52

Post by hkmurakami »

alexanderson wrote: post #12

As a Utahn, the most disappointing thing about this article is the racial homogeny. It's true - nearly everyone is white. But that doesn't mean that there isn't some diversity. When my father was a Mormon bishop, he would dole out orders for the Bishop's Storehouse to everyone just the same, whether they were white, black, Latino, or Asian - Made no difference to him. They got the same food, but also had to live by t…

Iirc Matz (of Ruby) is Mormon. I've always wondered what the Mormon roots are like outside of the continental US and how they took hold and continue to be.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#53

Post by ythn »

skywhopper wrote: post #50
DanBC wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can lift up people in situations like that, I'd be much more impressed. > But I think the lack of a real lower and upper class would make mobility look artificially better. I'm a bit confused. Aren't these contradictory? By not having poverty haven't they achieved the raising people out of poverty bit already?

The thing is, Utah has never had a truly poor population. They aren't raising people out of poverty, but it's growing fast and most of the people who move there are relatively rich compared to the general population. But also, Utah has the fifth richest bottom quartile of any state, about 40% higher than North Carolina's. So yes, it's much much easier to move from that to the top quartile than in most states.

> The thing is, Utah has never had a truly poor population.

What about when the first destitute pioneers arrived and found a desert?

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#55

Post by itchyjunk »

arconis987 wrote: post #43
itchyjunk wrote: post #15

When I was first about to move to Utah, few years ago, lot of people asked me "why?" and told me a lot about a lot of things. Of course, I didn't even know who the Mormons were (I am not from USA originally). Most of what I heard was wrong. I've met Mormons who have asked me where I am from and not only know where that country is but spoke to me in my NATIVE tougue. I was very impressed. The key word in the article i…

I grew up Mormon in Utah and I love the Mormons in my life. Every leader in local congregations is an unpaid volunteer. Everyone in the congregation has a responsibility to carry out in the community (sunday school teacher, youth mentor, clerk to track finances, etc). As a Mormon kid, I was taught to work hard my whole life for the good of others. I served a Mormon mission in Europe, which was an extremely difficult…

Ah, yes. I have heard similar experiences from ex-Mormons i've come across. Just shows that things are more complicated in real world and you can't take some anecdotal evidence to judge a group/person in any meaningful way. Your side of the story is not something people looking from the outside would normally see.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#56

Post by nine_k »

arconis987 wrote: post #43
itchyjunk wrote: post #15

When I was first about to move to Utah, few years ago, lot of people asked me "why?" and told me a lot about a lot of things. Of course, I didn't even know who the Mormons were (I am not from USA originally). Most of what I heard was wrong. I've met Mormons who have asked me where I am from and not only know where that country is but spoke to me in my NATIVE tougue. I was very impressed. The key word in the article i…

I grew up Mormon in Utah and I love the Mormons in my life. Every leader in local congregations is an unpaid volunteer. Everyone in the congregation has a responsibility to carry out in the community (sunday school teacher, youth mentor, clerk to track finances, etc). As a Mormon kid, I was taught to work hard my whole life for the good of others. I served a Mormon mission in Europe, which was an extremely difficult…

Isn't it the case with every group with strong identity? Imagine being raised in a long-term Democrat family and declaring that the Tea Party is your thing. (And it's not even about eternal damnation.)

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#57

Post by ythn »

princetontiger wrote: post #23

SLC suffers from inversion, and this article fails to address it... Would never live there. Worst air quality in the nation during the winter.

Also, lower oxygen levels in the air have been linked to higher depression and suicide (not just Utah, but everywhere near the Rockies).

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#58

Post by tnecniv »

tp3z4u wrote: post #33
kelukelugames wrote: post #8

I have a couple of girlfriends who moved to/from Utah from/to a costal city. They think it's backwards as hell.

I used to be a Mormon, my family converted when I was young. At no point did I believe their teachings. Like many cults being required to believe something obviously wrong keeps the normies out and clearly defines who is in the 'in group' and who is in the 'out group'. Just by saying you believe it signals to others that you are willing to lie in order to belong. I really enjoyed my time in the church. There is huge…

> Similarly, Dijkstra had to leave Europe to escape a 'religious' academia and found refuge in 'backwards' religious Texas.

Do you have a source for this? Seems like an interesting story and I couldn't find mention on his Wikipedia page.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#59

Post by skybrian »

jessriedel wrote: post #24
greeneggs wrote: post #5

> For a girl raised on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, Salt Lake City is a very weird place. I went to Utah precisely because it’s weird. More specifically, because economic data suggest that modest Salt Lake City, population 192,672, does something that the rest of us seem to be struggling with: It helps people move upward from poverty. By this criterion, should Salt Lake City be so weird to a New Yorker? Upward M…

Conjecture: the number one driver of a city's upward mobility is fraction of foreign-born population. Poor foreigners move to US with few skills, and then their children do fine. Note that this mechanism has nothing to do with the differences between social services in different cities. Let's check: Out of the 50 largest cities, here are where those high-mobility cities rank by percentage foreign-born. 3. San Jose 38…

I'm not sure about the "few skills" part - is there a way to verify that? Seems like there are a fair number of educated immigrants who have to take lower-paying jobs due to language and cultural barriers.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#60

Post by [deleted] »

jessriedel wrote: post #24
greeneggs wrote: post #5

> For a girl raised on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, Salt Lake City is a very weird place. I went to Utah precisely because it’s weird. More specifically, because economic data suggest that modest Salt Lake City, population 192,672, does something that the rest of us seem to be struggling with: It helps people move upward from poverty. By this criterion, should Salt Lake City be so weird to a New Yorker? Upward M…

Conjecture: the number one driver of a city's upward mobility is fraction of foreign-born population. Poor foreigners move to US with few skills, and then their children do fine. Note that this mechanism has nothing to do with the differences between social services in different cities. Let's check: Out of the 50 largest cities, here are where those high-mobility cities rank by percentage foreign-born. 3. San Jose 38…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN