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How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

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Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#141

Post by austenallred »

subpixel wrote: post #139
austenallred wrote: post #124

I'm a Mormon (grew up in Utah, served a mission in eastern Ukraine, speak Russian fluently, now live in the Bay Area). I often think of the way the Mormon church works as a distributed system, and the way it operates is not unlike most open source software. It works because everyone knows their role, is dedicated, and willing to sacrifice. In the ward (congregation) I'm in now I teach the fourteen-year-olds on Sunday…

I would love to contribute to a system like the one you describe that was not based on fealty to any particular system of belief. That being said, I'd argue that the belief (especially the affinity of shared belief) is totally fundamental to the system at any sort of scale. My own beliefs [0] are unfortunately not easily evangelized. [0] https://jimleff.blogspot.com/2013/06/apprecianity.html

I think you're right.Not sure how to replicate that outside of a shared system of belief.

Candidly I think there are many who aren't believing but are there for the social impact.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#142

Post by Banthum »

diebir wrote: post #120

Go ahead and visit Salt Lake (I am comparing to Colorado). I think they either don't have the money or out of principle do not maintain their roads. That's the economy. The geography is not favorable either. Salt Lake sits in a bowl surrounded by dark hills with little vegetation. The hills are all dug by mines and open pits. They have the whole range ("on the other side") that is essentially one big mine. The winter…

Comments on the climate and economy are reasonable here -

But your moral judgmentalism reminds me of a Bible-thumping racist talking about how horrible SF is because of all the godlessness and miscegenation.

Yes, people in Utah have different political values. Judge the results of those values, don't just say it's a horrible place because so many people have evil in their minds.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#143

Post by Dobbs »

redsummer wrote: post #131

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to…

On the other hand Utah has one of the higher suicide rates in the country[1], and leads the country in use of antidepressants[2].

Despite being tongue-in-cheek I think the lesson is not so cut and dry. In my personal, anecdotal experience, a lot of the behavior in Utah is forced to keep up the image of a particular life style.

1: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm 2: http://articles.latimes.com/2002/feb/20/news/mn-28924

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#144

Post by tomcam »

r00fus wrote: post #64
philipodonnell wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, conservatives tend to regard poverty as a self-inflicted state, or at least that remaining in poverty is a failing of the individual by not escaping it, and thus addressing poverty should be left to that individual. Liberals think of poverty more as a systematic social condition that individuals bear little responsibility for, either getting there or remaining there, and thus addressing poverty should be…

One of these views is more factually valid and supported by data.

I would like to see your citations

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#145

Post by M_Grey »

literallycancer wrote: post #102
dang wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious flamewars are not welcome on Hacker News. We ban accounts that do this.

The article reads like a propaganda piece though. Is it still a religious flame war if one of the sides is not religious?

Speaking as someone who is apathetic to this entire issue, and the broader issue of religion and faith (and I mean deeply apathetic; an apathy arrived at through lengthy searching and introspection)... who cares? Virtually any piece about religion has a serious bias either for against; it's the nature of the tribal arrangement that is religion. The modern tribe of "evangelical atheists" (to be distinguished from the usual variety) is behaviorally identical to religion, with the sole exception of lacking faith in a higher power. Now, that might be an interesting distinction for some lengthy philosophical argument, but really who cares?

Hacking is definitely a rational pursuit, and nothing in the world of religion is rational, including people who think that you can argue a perfect stranger out of their belief system. Discussions about religion online are worse than pointless, and they're mostly pointless offline too. You can go far in the world if you take the stance, "I don't talk politics, religion, or dreams."

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#146

Post by themodelplumber »

redsummer wrote: post #131

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to…

As a Mormon, allow me to suggest that the logic underlying your comment re:less authenticity strikes me as kinda PT Barnum in its own special way. I mean, I am used to receiving informed tips on the history of my church from those who know better than me, but the other high-wire mental gymnastics here, well, hope we got a nice net underneath.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#147

Post by cookiecaper »

diebir wrote: post #120

Go ahead and visit Salt Lake (I am comparing to Colorado). I think they either don't have the money or out of principle do not maintain their roads. That's the economy. The geography is not favorable either. Salt Lake sits in a bowl surrounded by dark hills with little vegetation. The hills are all dug by mines and open pits. They have the whole range ("on the other side") that is essentially one big mine. The winter…

Utah differs from other Republican states in a number of significant ways. They are generally pro-immigrant, so much that some hardline Republicans have started referring to SLC as a "sanctuary city". With so many Mormons who've gotten to know the poor inhabitants in foreign countries while they served missions, there is a great deal of sympathy for migrants and less regard for the technicalities of their status.

They care a lot about civility and decorum; Utah did go Trump, but it was the reddest state in presidential elections since Bush 1, and it was only light red in 2016. Some people were calling it a toss-up state after McMullin entered the race, and he did end up taking double-digit percentages, far better than any other third-party candidate.

Like other state's reps, Utah's delegation has struggled in figuring out how to approach Trump. It's a tough situation for everyone. Chaffetz has flipped on Trump a number of times, endorsing, un-endorsing, and then re-endorsing. As another commenter points out, other Utahns in Congress are firmly anti-Trump.

The state has a pragmatic streak and has installed a state-funded light rail to reduce pollution. They're building new homeless shelters. Despite the harsh climate, SLC is a common destination for panhandlers because it's easy to get help there.

Yes, it's true that Utah is conservative, but it doesn't have quite the same edge you find in other largely-conservative places, like the South.

The inversion sucks and is definitely one of the worst things about Utah (another reason not to be there in winter), but it's usually only a problem for a few weeks (usually in January). I'm not sure how you propose resolving that. The state can't just snap its fingers and force everyone to drive zero-emissions cars, and they've already installed a light rail that is quite accessible throughout the metro. SLC and other cities in the area have strict anti-idling ordinances.

Opposing Obama's recent annexations of land (most prominently, Bear's Ears) into the National Parks system should not automatically be interpreted as being anti-public-land or anti-environment.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#148

Post by amyjess »

redsummer wrote: post #131

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to…

Except that teen suicides in Utah are up. Way up. As in it's tripled in the past decade. And one of the factors is the Mormon church's notorious hostility towards LGBT youth: http://kutv.com/news/local/is-utahs-youth-suicide-rate-linke...

Utah has the 5th highest teen suicide rate in the country: https://www.equalityutah.org/issues/lgbt-youth

More: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-knoll/is-the-recent-r... http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/utah_s_y...

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#149

Post by arconis987 »

cookiecaper wrote: post #118
arconis987 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a very good point. That said, my guess is that, on average, shunning is probably less frequent when family members leave a political party than when they leave Mormonism, but that's just a guess with no backing evidence. Some Mormon families don't care whether their kids stay in the church or leave. For others, it leads to shunning and disowning. I'd say shunning probably occurs more for Mormon apostat…

Let me just make the correction here that "shunning" is not the same as any discomfort/disagreement/broken relationships. "Shunning" is a real policy advocated by some groups, such as JWs. It's intended to punish the traitor, and the rule is that you are supposed to completely divorce yourself from that person, cutting off all forms of contact. The intent is to cause the person to realize the error of their ways via…

You are absolutely correct. There is no official Mormon policy of shunning. The teachings from the leaders of the church on this matter are very generous and admirable and tend to be along the lines of something like, "reach out in love."

I guess what I was referring to is a kind of informal shunning where close friends or family suddenly cut off contact with you when they learn you have left the church. It would be nice if more people followed the loving teachings from leaders. Many continue to maintain loving relationships, but others want nothing more to do with you, even after years of friendship.

I take responsibility for this relationship shifting to some degree. Sometimes I wish I had never told anyone I had left the church so my friends and family would assume I was still part of the tribe. It's not easy to hide it though since various small hints can give it away, like being seen with a coffee or without your temple garment undershirt. It's difficult.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#150

Post by austenallred »

redsummer wrote: post #131

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to…

As an obviously-biased Mormon I'm not sure the conclusion follows.

Certainly there are fantastical elements to my religion (as there are to all religions I know of), but we don't do what we do to compensate for that. We do what we do because we believe it.

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