How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive • Hacker News Board

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#71

Post by anovikov » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 4:06 PM UTC

I can't see how 20% is a 'perfectly just world'. It is not a perfectly just - it is a perfectly random world. If it was 20%, it means that person from every family (wrt. parent's incomes) has equal chance to end up rich or poor, meaning that there is nothing that parents could do to help their child. It means nothing but a totalitarian, concentration camp society, because even if education, healthcare etc. are perfectly equal and free for everyone, there is still a personal example and values taught to the person by his parents that define a lot of his future. If i could not do anything at all to help my children succeed, i'd call it anything but fair.

Of course, reverse - 0% chance - is called a caste system. It is also completely unjust.

Middle ground - 10% - sounds about right.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#72

Post by tyingq » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 4:12 PM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #56

arconis987 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up Mormon in Utah and I love the Mormons in my life. Every leader in local congregations is an unpaid volunteer. Everyone in the congregation has a responsibility to carry out in the community (sunday school teacher, youth mentor, clerk to track finances, etc). As a Mormon kid, I was taught to work hard my whole life for the good of others. I served a Mormon mission in Europe, which was an extremely difficult…

Isn't it the case with every group with strong identity? Imagine being raised in a long-term Democrat family and declaring that the Tea Party is your thing. (And it's not even about eternal damnation.)

>Isn't it the case with every group with strong identity?

It's particularly troublesome in Utah because ~60% of the population is Mormon. It's not difficult to imagine a scenario where you lose your job, or an important supplier relationship because you left the church. Yes, it can happen elsewhere, but there aren't too many places in the US where a single religion is so dominant.

It doesn't even have to involve leaving the church. Choosing not to participate in the mission work that most Mormons do after high school, for example, has some shame associated with it.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#73

Post by tp3z4u » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

tnecniv wrote: post #58

tp3z4u wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be a Mormon, my family converted when I was young. At no point did I believe their teachings. Like many cults being required to believe something obviously wrong keeps the normies out and clearly defines who is in the 'in group' and who is in the 'out group'. Just by saying you believe it signals to others that you are willing to lie in order to belong. I really enjoyed my time in the church. There is huge…

> Similarly, Dijkstra had to leave Europe to escape a 'religious' academia and found refuge in 'backwards' religious Texas. Do you have a source for this? Seems like an interesting story and I couldn't find mention on his Wikipedia page.

I don't have a direct quote on hand. It is my understanding of the situation given the EWDs that I've read as well as his Dutch documentary.

The following addresses his reasoning on why Texas isn't as backwards as would be expected; https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/OtherDocs....

And I think the Dutch TV show goes into specifically why he had to leave europe in order to pursue his ideas.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#74

Post by arconis987 » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #62

arconis987 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up Mormon in Utah and I love the Mormons in my life. Every leader in local congregations is an unpaid volunteer. Everyone in the congregation has a responsibility to carry out in the community (sunday school teacher, youth mentor, clerk to track finances, etc). As a Mormon kid, I was taught to work hard my whole life for the good of others. I served a Mormon mission in Europe, which was an extremely difficult…

> my Mormon loved ones told me that they were concerned about the future of my children, that I was depriving my family of happiness in heaven, and, as one of my own parents told me, they didn't know who I was anymore. If they believe that you must be religious or else you burn in hell for all of eternity, then their reaction makes sense. They are behaving that way out of concern for your well being.

You're absolutely right. Whenever I've received a very stern scolding from a Mormon friend or family member over my decision to stop participating in Mormonism, I've tried to respond by saying that I'm grateful for their deep concern, which demonstrates that they care about me.

It would be nice if we could all believe what we want to without consequences to our relationships, but unfortunately that isn't a realistic expectation in many (maybe most) religious communities.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#75

Post by sswaner » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 4:35 PM UTC

arconis987 wrote: post #74

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> my Mormon loved ones told me that they were concerned about the future of my children, that I was depriving my family of happiness in heaven, and, as one of my own parents told me, they didn't know who I was anymore. If they believe that you must be religious or else you burn in hell for all of eternity, then their reaction makes sense. They are behaving that way out of concern for your well being.

You're absolutely right. Whenever I've received a very stern scolding from a Mormon friend or family member over my decision to stop participating in Mormonism, I've tried to respond by saying that I'm grateful for their deep concern, which demonstrates that they care about me. It would be nice if we could all believe what we want to without consequences to our relationships, but unfortunately that isn't a realistic…

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1.11?lang=eng#10

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#76

Post by BurningFrog » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 4:44 PM UTC

arconis987 wrote: post #43

itchyjunk wrote: post #15

When I was first about to move to Utah, few years ago, lot of people asked me "why?" and told me a lot about a lot of things. Of course, I didn't even know who the Mormons were (I am not from USA originally). Most of what I heard was wrong. I've met Mormons who have asked me where I am from and not only know where that country is but spoke to me in my NATIVE tougue. I was very impressed. The key word in the article i…

I grew up Mormon in Utah and I love the Mormons in my life. Every leader in local congregations is an unpaid volunteer. Everyone in the congregation has a responsibility to carry out in the community (sunday school teacher, youth mentor, clerk to track finances, etc). As a Mormon kid, I was taught to work hard my whole life for the good of others. I served a Mormon mission in Europe, which was an extremely difficult…

I always wonder about the Mormon missionaries.

Did you actually convert anyone? Or is that not even the point?

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#77

Post by m-j-fox » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 4:53 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #24

greeneggs wrote: post #5

> For a girl raised on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, Salt Lake City is a very weird place. I went to Utah precisely because it’s weird. More specifically, because economic data suggest that modest Salt Lake City, population 192,672, does something that the rest of us seem to be struggling with: It helps people move upward from poverty. By this criterion, should Salt Lake City be so weird to a New Yorker? Upward M…

Conjecture: the number one driver of a city's upward mobility is fraction of foreign-born population. Poor foreigners move to US with few skills, and then their children do fine. Note that this mechanism has nothing to do with the differences between social services in different cities. Let's check: Out of the 50 largest cities, here are where those high-mobility cities rank by percentage foreign-born. 3. San Jose 38…

Conjecture: economic growth is correlated with social mobility.

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/the-economic-case-for-soc...

Growth and social mobility are the things Salt Lake and San Jose have in common.

The economic engine of San Jose relies on recruiting immigrants to drive a young, skilled labor force. In Salt Lake they manufacture their own youthful workforce by having the highest fertility rate in the land.

Think of the baby boom -- the last time both growth and mobility were high in the US.

The mechanism is irrelevant, but I'll point out that both Salt Lake and San Jose are running pyramid schemes. Eventually you run out of places to put people and then your population ages and then you have a problem. See Japan. Also, the bill is coming due for San Jose sooner and for Salt Lake later but that's another story.

Oh, and I completely reject that Mormon institutions (while perfectly admirable) and lack of ethnic diversity (questionable at best) have anything to do with Utah's recent economic pop.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#78

Post by tmorton » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

ythn wrote: post #53

skywhopper wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, Utah has never had a truly poor population. They aren't raising people out of poverty, but it's growing fast and most of the people who move there are relatively rich compared to the general population. But also, Utah has the fifth richest bottom quartile of any state, about 40% higher than North Carolina's. So yes, it's much much easier to move from that to the top quartile than in most states.

> The thing is, Utah has never had a truly poor population. What about when the first destitute pioneers arrived and found a desert?

At the time (1847), they were not the poorest people in North America.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#79

Post by vlunkr » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 5:04 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #76

arconis987 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up Mormon in Utah and I love the Mormons in my life. Every leader in local congregations is an unpaid volunteer. Everyone in the congregation has a responsibility to carry out in the community (sunday school teacher, youth mentor, clerk to track finances, etc). As a Mormon kid, I was taught to work hard my whole life for the good of others. I served a Mormon mission in Europe, which was an extremely difficult…

I always wonder about the Mormon missionaries. Did you actually convert anyone? Or is that not even the point?

Yes they do, and that is their main purpose. They also do service projects, etc.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#80

Post by valuearb » Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

davidf18 wrote: post #4

The $20K per year per pupil that NYC (and other large cities) spends is skewed because of the enormous costs of special education. I don't know the numbers for NYC, but from an article I saw about Philly: cost to educate non-special need child: $10K, moderately special need: (7% of students) $20K, severe special need: (another 7% of students) $40K. I suspect Salt Lake City has a much lower amount of special needs stu…

Special education is a self perpetuating bureaucracy everywhere. Not to say the programs don't offer super valuable services to those in need, but my experience is it's really hard to get your kids out of special ed when they are ready to mainstream.

In my daughters case they fought us for two years, we eventually moved her to a charter school that mainstreamed her immediately. 2 years later she's made the honor roll twice.