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Ask HN: Have you ever regretted hiring a developer?

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Re: Ask HN: Have you ever regretted hiring a developer?

#81
post #13

If you hire enough people, eventually you'll have a bunch of examples for this question, unless of course you never make mistakes. Pretty much everything you can imagine can go wrong and probably more. Hiring anyone is always a risk but it's one you can't avoid, nor do I think that the interview process should be so tough as to have lots of false negatives to prevent those bad hires; better IMO to have a reasonable f…

Don't you think the first one can be a result of imposter syndrome and not wanting to risk looking like a fool for asking for help? If they feel like they ought to be able to figure it out on their own, asking for help suddenly is a big hurdle because they think that their colleagues will judge them for it.

Absolutely can be, I know from first hand experience. Know what the solution is? Adjusting your world view and learning how to ask for help without looking incompetent. This usually boils down to:

1. Research the problem first as best you can and describe the steps you took to solve it when asking for help

2. Take notes so you don't end up asking the same question twice

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever regretted hiring a developer?

#82
post #55

I've regretted hiring a few developers who have been apathetic about the actual software product we're making. I am sometimes too optimistic about a technically proficient candidate sharing these traits, during the interview process. After hiring they are depressingly unexcited about delivering a new feature that promises business value, significantly improves performance etc. It's just work to be done.

If a few developers have been apathetic maybe it's that your product/tech is not exciting enough for them? I know quite a few devs that would be like that if they had to work on something like a legacy J2EE webapp.

I thought it was interesting. But that was probably just me!

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever regretted hiring a developer?

#83
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally these sort of discussions are not focused on the laws about firing - but more about the risk of valid or invalid accusations of violating EEOC enforced laws[1]. The risk in most places is that firing is often subjective, and folks rightly worry that the firing is done on subjective means, especially if the person is a 'protected class' which is generally loosely interpreted as anyone other than a white male…

Yea, I dislike anti-discrimination laws too for that reason. They probably worked well for manual labor and the like. Don't forget "performance reviews" and "PIPs" too.

We do quarterly performance reviews. We give and get candid feedback.

I've never put someone on a PIP with the intention of firing them. I've never fired someone that was reasonably surprised.

When I put someone on a PIP it's because they choose not to listen to what needs to be done, and I desperately hope that a super formal message will get it across.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever regretted hiring a developer?

#84
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question--for some reason, I've always believed that previous employers tend to avoid saying anything negative about their former employees. Is this not the case?

They don't usually trash former employees, but you can read between the line. One time a reference given by the candidate for a senior post glossed over everything but focused on attendance. "He is a good guy. He is always on time for work and very punctual for meetings."

Or the classic, "you will be lucky if you can get him to work for you."

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever regretted hiring a developer?

#85
The employee knows about all of the parts of a standard application and can speak to them, but cannot put them together without hours of coaching and discussion. Or the inability to make the right decision when presented with information. Or to fail to ask questions when presented with an unknown, instead making the wrong decision.

When presented with a standardized solution that is formalized and utilized across the entire application, will either implement a new, inadequate solution or keep asking around the senior members of the team until someone, given a small enough slice of the problem set, is coerced into validating the inadequate solution, usually devolving into wasteful group meetings on said topic.

When asked to following the standard conventions of the large codebase he or she is now working in, decides to implement new folder hierarchies, naming conventions and to litter the code with unnecessary common functions, copied and pasted code blocks, large commented blocks, all of these against the communicated and often repeated standards of the application.

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I initially took it as an affront. Most of the standards were being ignored or questioned by this person. And I had regrets about hiring them.

Having had some time to consider the problem, I think that part of the issue is that the person comes from a background where they were in a "get things done" frame of mind. Technology was the means to an end and never a first class citizen. And they were the only programmer. And they had major business responsibilities as well.

Being the sole programmer of an organization leaves you in a very isolated position, unable to learn about new standards and technologies unless you actively seek them out. If you are getting things done, well then all is well with you and your skill set. You clearly have the right answers because things are working.

I believe that someone coming from that type of background is likely to need to reframe the world in the way they have known it, unable to accept new standards. They are lost without being able to anchor themselves in their old conventions. They are likely to accept the first working solution, because the code is not an asset, it's a tool. Copying and pasting are a savings in the short term. Commented out code is an artifact of their results-driven development process.

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I agree that there are times when you just have to fire someone, but that is not always the only option on the table. Sometimes you can work with what you have by understanding why things are they way they are.

In order to get the best value out of this person, I try to capitalize on their strengths by assigning tasks that I am comfortable letting them own. They have a niche, and they call the shots in that niche. They are empowered and in control of their own domain again.

When I find that they are deviating from our standards, I convey the reasoning for the standards, but I do so in the form of questions that lead the person to arrive to the right conclusions. In this way, they are deriving the right answers and they own that reasoning. The old way is no longer necessary because the new way makes sense to them now.

And it gets better.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever regretted hiring a developer?

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managers that can't do are generally shepherds. Only sheep follow them. Yes, it's good that managers can know a lot about a broad amount, but they should be skilled enough to dive fairly deep and realistically be expected to jump into anyone's job. Otherwise, you're hiring an administrator or a non-technical manager. And there's a place for that, but not one I want to be near.

I see nothing wrong with a manager who is technical but can't take a deep dive into the code. A manager's role could be to decide strategy, priorities, budgets, inter team communications, working with the customer etc. the biggest thing I want from a manager is to hire good people and to trust them with the "how". My manager decides the "what" and "when". He leaves it up to his team to decide the how.

"strategy, priorities, budgets, inter team communications, working with the customer" is 90% of how. Your manager just presents these things as if they're not.

weak e.g. http://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/5-ways-to-ask-the-perfect-ques...

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever regretted hiring a developer?

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But dont you find it ridiculous that employers get what they ask for. They ask for degrees, they get people with degrees. I looked just now for some jobs that I could do and they ask for degrees. The reason I dropped out of a top 10 global engineering university was because I saw right there that it didnt teach me programming. So I learnt on my own. I recently applied for my first job, and its that type of job where…

But you are missing the case of both a degree and good programming skills. If two programmers code equally, why wouldn't I hire the guy with the degree? That took the algorithm classes and took the writing class and has more tools in his toolbox than coding? It's ok you don't have a degree but not sure why you would be shocked that some prefer college graduates

The only thing that shocks me is to read over and over again that cs graduates dont know how to program. Its that famous article about cs graduates.

Also, the definition of insanity is to do the same thing and expect different results.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever regretted hiring a developer?

#88
post #50

I've never had a hire go wrong for technical reasons. I have hired, participated in hiring, or inherited several developers who had to be let go for reasons related to attitude or soft skills. Some examples: - a guy with an alcohol problem who would disappear for a week at a time or come in to work sloshed - a junior developer who had major problems with authority, mixed with bizarre paranoia. He refused to take dire…

The perfect code guy doesn't sound so bad.

If you're building life support software or manned lunar probes, maybe you want him on your team.

If you're a startup trying to find product-market fit before you run out of funding, better to ship a few bugs every week (in features that have an 80% chance of not existing or being rewritten anyway within a few years) than nothing at all for months.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever regretted hiring a developer?

#89
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After hiring they are depressingly unexcited about delivering a new feature that promises business value, significantly improves performance etc. It's just work to be done. Well...yeah, it is just work to do, because it's just a job. Turn it around: why should they be excited about something they have no meaningful ownership (and I don't mean a few tenths or hundredths of a percent) in? If the co-founder who owns f…

I'm not sure what to make of that. Assuming the product isn't genuinely boring, is it the norm then that developers without a direct financial incentive in the growth of the company should just be drones who type code in exchange for a salary?

Being strictly professional and capable and executing on a problem has nothing to do with being a "drone". Developers should be looking out strictly and exclusively for their own interests, just as the company that employs them does. Excitement and enthusiasm are tools used to get a better deal on behalf of the company than the company deserves, and that's literally it.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever regretted hiring a developer?

#90
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After hiring they are depressingly unexcited about delivering a new feature that promises business value, significantly improves performance etc. It's just work to be done. Well...yeah, it is just work to do, because it's just a job. Turn it around: why should they be excited about something they have no meaningful ownership (and I don't mean a few tenths or hundredths of a percent) in? If the co-founder who owns f…

I'm not sure what to make of that. Assuming the product isn't genuinely boring, is it the norm then that developers without a direct financial incentive in the growth of the company should just be drones who type code in exchange for a salary?

Looking at it from the other perspective is it sensible to centre your life on a job that may not even exist tomorrow?
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