Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say • Hacker News Board

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#171

Post by pdelbarba » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 9:06 PM UTC

kordless wrote: post #32

wvenable wrote: post #13

The real problem is that bytes are effectively free. Here I am, using up your bytes right now. Using up the bytes on Hacker news. The only limit is my own time, effort, and energy. You think this means that we're all equal; we all have equal access to sharing bytes. But the problem is that trolls have infinite time and energy to post bytes. They have significantly more power and influence than you do because of that…

It is an irrational belief that trolls have infinite time and energy. This is, in fact, the very idea of irrationality, who's concept indicates additional work must be done to determine outcome of choice, either by individual or by group. Note that I did not disagree with your assertions here, but simply seek to restate them in slightly different terms so they may be visualized by others more effectively. Trolls may…

I think the counterpoint here is that it's much easier to make a script to automate the process of spreading misery than it is to make quality contributions to an online community.

See https://xkcd.com/810/

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#172

Post by nradov » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 9:11 PM UTC

pdelbarba wrote: post #150

pdeuchler wrote: post #137

The internet is as it always was, the only difference is more people, and more importantly more people without technological prowess and forum/bbs/irc experience, are accessing it and moving increasingly larger chunks of their life to the internet. As someone who fell in love with the internet when I was young because nobody knew I was young , it constantly surprises me when people put intimate details online and the…

Honest question: how would you reconcile privacy-centric communities like Reddit and definitely-not-privacy-centric communities like Facebook? They both have the same patterns of information bubbles generally feed content in similar ways (broadly speaking) and they both have strong troll subgroups. If anything, Facebook might have a lower overall incidence of trolling because you run the risk of having your profile p…

Does Facebook actually have less trolling? I don't know how anyone could quantify it but subjectively there seems to be a lot. It's easy to create fake accounts, and some people just don't care.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#173

Post by noobermin » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

pdeuchler wrote: post #137

The internet is as it always was, the only difference is more people, and more importantly more people without technological prowess and forum/bbs/irc experience, are accessing it and moving increasingly larger chunks of their life to the internet. As someone who fell in love with the internet when I was young because nobody knew I was young , it constantly surprises me when people put intimate details online and the…

The majority of people who say "don't feed the trolls" have never been the focus of a trolling campaign, I've found. It is easy to claim this when you aren't under constant violent harassment and scrutiny. It is not fair to expect everyone else to have a "battle-hardened" stoicism when you've probably never experienced such a life.

I've never experienced such harassment myself and used to sing the "ignore" mantra too, until I tried to imagine myself in the shoes of those who receive frequent harassment, and I'm not sure I would be able to ignore at the same level they are expected to.

Also, I'm not sure you are arguing whether a cause of the issue is identity being coupled to your internet presence, but I'm not sure we can go back to the internet of the early 2000's or late 90's, so we need to deal with the world as it exists now instead of thinking appeal to tradition will solve issues we have today.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#174

Post by Karunamon » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 9:15 PM UTC

iamcasen wrote: post #23

rjbwork wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your solution is to be given tools to enforce your cognitive bias reinforcing filter bubble? That's not a solution, that's a technology provided lobotomy. A dialogue takes two - if you don't like the dialogue taking place, instead of attempting to quiet the other voices, perhaps just remove yourself from the dialogue.

Filtering out thousands of "Obama is a monkey" type comments is not reinforcing anyone's cognitive bias...

The conflation of "Obama is a monkey" type comments with people who legitimately dislike the man's policies is not a good faith definition of trolling.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#175

Post by pdelbarba » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 9:17 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #172

pdelbarba wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: how would you reconcile privacy-centric communities like Reddit and definitely-not-privacy-centric communities like Facebook? They both have the same patterns of information bubbles generally feed content in similar ways (broadly speaking) and they both have strong troll subgroups. If anything, Facebook might have a lower overall incidence of trolling because you run the risk of having your profile p…

Does Facebook actually have less trolling? I don't know how anyone could quantify it but subjectively there seems to be a lot. It's easy to create fake accounts, and some people just don't care.

In an absolute sense I imagine they probably have more, given that they have something like 1.5 billion users. I think the type of trolling might be more mild in general though, back when I used it regularly it was mostly just 20 page political debates hinging on gross misunderstandings by both parties...

Obviously this is just my experience though.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#176

Post by ruleabidinguser » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 9:17 PM UTC

Goronmon wrote: post #87

coldtea wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't that a bit of a tautology? "If I expand the definition of the word 'troll' to include 'authors decrying trolling' then authors who decry trolling become 'trolls' themselves." No, it's not tautological. The parent doesn't propose to "expand the definition of the word 'troll' to include 'authors decrying trolling'". He proposes defining trolls as "as anyone who posts inflammatory, bad faith, needlessly aggressi…

The parent doesn't propose to "expand the definition of the word 'troll' to include 'authors decrying trolling'". He proposes defining trolls as "as anyone who posts inflammatory, bad faith, needlessly aggressive, insulting, false, or otherwise unproductive content". If you assume that the word troll does not mean "anyone who posts inflammatory, bad faith, needlessly aggressive, insulting, false, or otherwise unprodu…

Most of these authors label people who are not trolls, btu rather just disagree with them.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#177

Post by ruleabidinguser » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 9:19 PM UTC

LoSboccacc wrote: post #120

MR4D wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more of a signal to noise problem. We've had that issue before in society (e.g. the Middle Ages), when information flow was not constructive, and therefore not _additive_. The net result was that society moved sideways, not forward. Contrast that with Victorian England, where large parts of society had "manners", which allowed for information to be constructive, and society (technology, etc) could evolve…

Well a large part of our daily communication is still how's weather like, gossip and what's for dinner. Internet may look like it's all lolcats and trolls if you look hard enough, but that's like dropping into a teenage group and complain all they talk all day is tits and soccer* At any time one can still go on a gated, moderated community and obtain meaningful noise free communication with little interference from t…

I wish people understood this. Its so incredibly frutrating to deal with (controlling?) people trying to control the way communities that they have just joined operate. Here's an alternative to joining a community you don't like: don't join the community!

People will act like they understand this, but if they did, they simply wouldn't have a problem. Theres really no issue here if you actually understand this advice.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#178

Post by unholythree » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 9:20 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #47

michaelchisari wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I could see that being a problem, but if the question that the "help vampire" is asking is a valid one, then you have to remember that all online conversations have an audience, and that your response is as much to the audience as it is to the person you're directly responding to. Even just politely linking a similar question and response is better than responding with RTFM. > RTFM has always been part of the h…

Help vampires do not ask valid questions very often. It's very unlikely a community will have RTFM as a standard response to valid questions (i.e. those that provide context and show effort on the part of the asker), with one exception: when the question has been asked countless times already, and the asker could have seen it if they had made the minimum effort of reading the community's FAQ. In which case, RTFM -- o…

>...one exception: when the question has been asked countless times already, and the asker could have seen it if they had made the minimum effort of reading the community's FAQ. In which case, RTFM -- or rather, a link to the FAQ -- is the best response.

This is actually the RTFM-ish situations I hate the most; specifically as someone searching a forum and finding a thread or threads close to my own question, only to find the only responses are rudely unhelpful.

I get not answering an insipid post, or a mod locking/deleting one but replying to a question you find dumb or repetitive is a waste of time to everyone involved.

Just like "Don't feed the Trolls," I feel one shouldn't raise the post count of a time sink.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#179

Post by the_af » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 9:21 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #76

the_af wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From "RTFM" attitudes While agree some internet users are a bit too gung-ho with RTFM, I think it's unfair to lump them with trolls. While veterans can be harsh and unfriendly, the RTFM response is often warranted (though, again, it could be phrased more nicely -- and the default assumption should be that the person seeking help is well-intentioned). Otherwise, many online communities would be completely overrun by…

RTFM are usually jerks acting like jerk and it has nothing to do with seniority or skill. Half of those "harsh" people don't know all that much. Overworked seniors simply don't respond on forums due to lack of time. Seniors with time and willingness to answer answer how they know. RTFM are doing what they are doing just to stroke their own ego. Being jerk does not imply skill nor lack of it. It just being jerk.

I disagree that RTFM'ers are jerks, for reasons I've already explained in other posts (though, again, there are ways and ways of telling someone to RTFM, some nicer than others).

Other than that, I agree they are not necessarily more senior or experienced. That's why I used the term "veterans": they are old timers in the community in question, have seen countless newbies come and go, and must suffer the onslaught of help vampires with needy requests and an ungrateful, instant-gratification attitude every day. They may not necessarily be seniors, but they are the people who actually form the community, because help vampires ask their poorly-formulated questions and go away forever, only to be replaced by newer ones. They do not tend to "grow" the community, only destroy it by attrition. How would you deal with them?

Again, "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" ( http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html ) should be mandatory reading for online participation in online communities. Some of it is even common sense. And if you don't have the time to read it or TFM or the FAQ, why should volunteers take the time to help you, anyway?

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#180

Post by ruleabidinguser » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 9:22 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #106

welanes wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but you don't have to go there. That's the point. Trolls aren't winning the Internet, for the most part they're loitering in those corners of the web you'd expect to find them.

if the internet is supposed to be a truly public platform, that is to say a space where different opinions can collide productively then the internet at the moment is clearly losing. It's not that the trolls occupy the corners, it's that they occupy the big, visible public spaces of the internet, while everybody else is driven into digital sanctuaries. That clearly is a failure if the stated goal is to genuinely demo…

What if the so-called trolls are actually just the majority of people?