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What’s so bad about Scientism?

philpapers.org

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Re: What’s so bad about Scientism?

#61
post #49
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiverses as a result of space receding faster than speed of light are pretty much universally accepted. Other kinds are more controversial. There are galaxies not co-existant with us in the future that are now.

Ahh, I see, we were talking about different concepts of the multivese then. I'd consider your definition of multiverses still as part of our own universe, just not our observable universe. But I think this is more a question of definition...

For the existence and coexistence they amount to the same. There are galaxies now that will leave our co-existance in the future and still exist. Disproves that existence implies co-existence.

Re: What’s so bad about Scientism?

#62
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which phenomena would you consider not ultimately analysable via scientific methodology?

Probably T <= 0, multiple universes, inside a black hole, etc. You also can't run an experiment on your own life, not really, since you only have one life and that's not a large enough sample. So questions like "what is true for you, uniquely?"

Your life is definitely a large enough sample for experiments about you, since it covers the whole domain. No need to even use statistics.

Re: What’s so bad about Scientism?

#63
post #55
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is a part of philosophy, and at the same time it extends it. You're assuming that philosophy is only idealist guessing, which is wrong. I mean, you wouldn't say that "Large areas of science are routinely demolished" by newer science, even though strictly speaking it's true, and you'd therefore give up on science as a whole? (And if I'd really want to be mean, I'd ask you if science has ever even proven the "r…

Science regularly demolishes science too, of course. Scientists don't have a problem with thatm they just move on. But in my opinion philosophers do. I know philosophy is extremely rigorous. Science is fiddly, it works in approximations. Philosophers hate ad hocs postulates like dark matter or cosmological constants. They hate not knowing how certain things work. That's part of the problem. They need to apply their r…

That's an extreme generalisation. Yes, there are philosphers and philosophies that would reject these things, but it's absurd to assume that all do.

You also have to remember that science operates within it's own framework, and assumes concepts of truth that are accepted within this community, such as the scientific method to gain knowledge. But these are presumed to be true, without anyone having had proven them.

Philosophy on the other hand, as a more general subject, even questions these frameworks and has to operate without any pre-given framework. A Platonist won't be shunned by a scientific discovery, since it isn't a threat to it's epistemological framework.

Therefore I say that science is part of philosophy, but this doesn't mean it's wrong or bad. Everyday life proves it's helpfulness. One just has to keep in mind, that there is no proof it's ultimately true, and that all objections are "appeals to emotion". Followers of Scientism, even though they wouldn't say it themselves, do this, dogmatically believing that they are the true way and that's the problem everyone has with them. (I'm not saying it's better when Platonists or anyone else does it, but the others are more common nowadays)

Re: What’s so bad about Scientism?

#64
"Science vs Philosophy" is a misguided debate. The scientific method answers questions about how the world works. Philosophy discusses how best we should act in the world as it is.

Do they sometimes try to answer the same questions? Yes, and it's usually in the case where philosophical ideas can be, and have in the past, been the best model for explaining phenomenon that we didn't have the tools to measure with science.

Now that that's out of the way...

There is, of course, nothing wrong with the scientific method for examining the world, but Scientism has many pitfalls:

- Biased scientists that only publish research whose results are favorable to their own idea of the world.

- Advocating for blowing up real-life systems in favor of new "scientifically proven" ones, because unintended consequences are a given in complex systems.

- "Scientists" promoting their research for their own monetary gain, regardless of known consequences.

- A culture where anyone who disagrees with the "general consensus" is labeled as an "idiot," even if they back up their claim with showing flaws in the research process.

- Even with good science and valid results, often the recommendation about what to do about the findings is not based in science, but followers of scientism will conflate the two.

Anti-scientism is not the same as anti-science.

Re: What’s so bad about Scientism?

#65
post #63
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science regularly demolishes science too, of course. Scientists don't have a problem with thatm they just move on. But in my opinion philosophers do. I know philosophy is extremely rigorous. Science is fiddly, it works in approximations. Philosophers hate ad hocs postulates like dark matter or cosmological constants. They hate not knowing how certain things work. That's part of the problem. They need to apply their r…

That's an extreme generalisation. Yes, there are philosphers and philosophies that would reject these things, but it's absurd to assume that all do. You also have to remember that science operates within it's own framework, and assumes concepts of truth that are accepted within this community, such as the scientific method to gain knowledge. But these are presumed to be true, without anyone having had proven them. Ph…

Not all do, but I'd say there's a real disconnect between the disciplines when there should be more teamwork.

If Philosophy is going to argue that the scientific method doesn't work, or that the world doesn't exist, we can't trust our senses or stuff like that, go ahead. Has there been any practical advancement on this line of thinking in the last 50 years? do you envision that the scientific method will be revised by anything discovered in philosophy?

Re: What’s so bad about Scientism?

#66
post #54
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an axiom, it's a theorem (or maybe a definition of "2"). The more usual definition of "2" is "S(S(0))" (the successor of the successor of zero). "1" is "S(0)". "S(0) + S(0) = S(S(0))" is a theorem , a consequence of the axioms "for all x and y, x + S(y) = S(x + y)" and "for all x, x + 0 = x".

I called it an axiom for the sake of brevity. I felt that reciting the Peano axioms would only cloud my point. Was I 100% precise? No. Did you add something meaningful to the discussion? That's for you to answer.

"axiom" is two letters shorter than "theorem", so no, brevity doesn't cut it as an excuse. The difference between an axiom and a theorem is, undoubtedly, germane to a thread about the different ways we can know things.

Re: What’s so bad about Scientism?

#67
A little bit of philosophy bashing? Ok, why not, let's start with a old joke from former soviet Eastgermany :

A mathematic, a biologist and a physicist are flying in a hot air balloon, but got lost. Then they see a men jogging under them, so they get lower and the biologist shouts to him: "Hey you, where are we?"

The man looks up, but does not answer.

Then the physicist shouts: "Hey you, can you please tell us, where we are?"

Still nothing, but then finally he shouts back: "you are in a hot air balloon!"

"Ah, a philosopher" says the mathematician. "How do you know?" ask the others. "Well, a) he took very long for his answer, b) it fits with objective reality and c) it is totally worthless for us."

(the main job of the philosophers back then and there was to defend the Marx-Lenin Philosophy to the people, where they tried to prove them, that the people are on the way to the best of every possible society, but people still complained about not having toilet papers)

Then a line I remember from Thureau: "We have Professors of Philosophy, but no Philosophers."

So, to get more serious and a wildly speculative hypothesis: maybe Philosophers got so bad overall, because they tried too hard beeing regarded as scientist, when maybe their field is not really approachable with scientific methods. At least not main parts of it.

Because there is a big, maybe infinite world, which we can't (yet) explain properbly with math. And maybe there are some areas, which you can never describe with math. To get a bit esoteric:

The Tao that can be told, is not the eternal Tao ...

This is in my opinion the purpose of Philosophy. Think freely and create modells about those areas. Philosphy as the art of wisdom. Trying to understand complex worlds, which you cannot put in (finite) numbers.

Humans for example.

Because we are more than just some numbers and can't be reduced to them, which is, what is sadly more and more happening. And philosophers trying to be, what they are not, might be a cause to it.

Re: What’s so bad about Scientism?

#68
post #53
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you go about testing the hypothesis that 1 + 1 = 2? Not just showing that a particular physical representation obeys the logical laws of arithmetic, but to test the actual laws themselves.

I could be wrong but if you wanted to test the hypothesis: given the rules of addition show that 1 + 1 = 2 can be deduced. The experiment would be to go about the deduction. It is falsifiable.

When we talk about falsification in modern science, we usually mean falsification through empirical experiment. It must involve data from the real world.

If you include thought experiments based on nothing but arbitrary axioms, a lot of crazy claims about supernatural beings and other metaphysical curiosities would also qualify as falsifiable. I'm not sure whether you'd like to go down that rabbit hole. Science is about understanding the actual physical world that we live in -- not some fantasy world no matter how internally consistent it might be.

Re: What’s so bad about Scientism?

#69
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that it's not a hypothesis. Or, at least there are views about maths where it's not a hypothesis.

So it's something that's not a scientific hypothesis, but is considered knowledge! (Or, if as in the other comment chain, 1+1=2 is too obvious, you can take any sufficiently non-trivial theorem of your choosing).

Under the view I'm describing any statement like that is a kind of definition, not something that is true or false.

You can investigate whether it is consistent with other definitions. I believe that doing so is empirical work, which I think is consistent with a broad notion of science

Re: What’s so bad about Scientism?

#70
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Strong Scientism: Of all the knowledge we have, scientific knowledge is the only “real knowledge.” Stupid question. What is an example of a hypothesis that is not falsifiable by experiment but should still be considered "knowledge"?

> What is an example of a hypothesis that is not falsifiable by experiment but should still be considered "knowledge"? As the paper points out, things like the following are problematic from a purely experimental approach: "Scientific knowledge is better than non-scientific knowledge." Yet many scientists treat it as common knowledge.

Jesus was conceived without sperm.
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