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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#571

Post by orbifold »

oblio wrote: post #547
794CD01 wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything that just demonstrates the point further. Ireland and India are now independent and are happier for it. Scotland will soon join them. The EU doesn't want Britain to leave. The oppressors and the oppressed do not have the same goals.

The EU is an oppressor, really? Hyperbole, much? Everyone joined the EU willingly. The fact that they can leave whenever is further proof that the EU is not autocratic.

Of course it is oppression, it is antidemocratic, was forced on the people and pushed heavily by propaganda. It is a project of the elites and industry, any benefits to ordinary people are far outweighed by the benefits of industry. For the longest time it was simply that: A number of economic treaties, the political stuff was added later on because people realised that it would be far easier to push through their agenda if they only had one semi-democratic negotiating partner to deal with. In the last ten years several anti-democratic "directives" were pushed down to national parliaments, cast into law and later found to be unconstitutional. The best example would be the "Telecommunications data retention" laws:

- They were formulated as an EU-directive in 2006 (which means every national parliament is forced to pass a law based on this directive)

- The corresponding German law was passed in 2008

- The law was declared unconstitutional in 2010 by the German Supreme court and in 2014 by the EU high court

- Of course the german parliament reintroduced slightly changed legislation in 2015

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#572

Post by notahacker »

waqf wrote: post #499
pluma wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I missed the bit where the Council doesn't consist of the democratically heads of states of the member nations (or their individually appointed delegates). If your country's Council member doesn't represent your interests, that's not the EU's fault, that's your government's fault. Literally every person who gets to do anything in the EU Parliament, Commission or Council is ultimately in that position because o…

Let's caricature this a little bit: suppose it were a rule of the EU that each national government had to appoint half a dozen people to receive a million-euro salary straight from EU funds (that means, of course, from funds that ultimately the member states paid into the EU budget themselves) for doing nothing. Even assuming the citizens of member states were fully conscious that this was happening, who do you think…

I'd assume the government should take full responsibility for who it appoints to receive the subsidies and what they do with them.

But we're not talking about slush funds for doing nothing, we're talking about who makes policy. And funnily enough in Westminster we also have a Cabinet and PM setting the policy agenda that are chosen not by some universal franchise but nominated by the representatives of different localities. The transfer of executive power from the MP for Witney to the MP for Maidenhead happened without the involvement of a single person outside the political class, and I didn't vote for any of the Bill Select Committees proposing new legislation or any of the individuals heading up any of the departments responsible for implementing it. And so yeah, I'm holding Conservative MPs rather than the public or the drafters of Britain's constitution responsible for how Brexit gets implemented

Weirdly, few of the people insisting that the UK must leave because of the terrible system of government the EU has are remotely bothered about similar democratic deficits in Westminster.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#573

Post by ed_balls »

astrodust wrote: post #543
mkaziz wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It actually is going pretty well. We elected a demagogue and he's as checked and balanced as he can be, given that he has the House and Senate.

I'd give it a solid B+ for the last 240 years. It's only had a single civil war which compared to the last 240 years of Europe is downright amazing!

Keep in mind how small USA was 240 years ago. In 1910 it was 90m comparing to Germany 62m.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#574

Post by presidente20 »

rbehrends wrote: post #567
presidente20 wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok you're right, I meant aside from the Leader of the Lords. Nevertheless, having one or two Lords in the Cabinet out of 22 hardly invalidates my original point that it's an elected (by the people) executive.

How many Brits voted for Theresa May? (If you don't want to look it up, she got about .12% of the popular vote.)

That's a lot compared to Juncker.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#575

Post by AnimalMuppet »

pluma wrote: post #246
Svip wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU?

The often cited claim that the EU is undemocratic stems from a difference of opinion what "democratic" actually means. First of all: there is barely any nation that is truly democratic in the historic sense of the word. Most democracies are actually representational systems: citizens don't vote on every single issue, they elect someone to represent them and vote in their name. Who each representative actually represe…

When I think "undemocratic", I think about the EU Constitution being rejected in a vote. Oh, OK, we'll just come back with the Lisbon Treaty, which you won't get to vote on.

Somebody (Netherlands or Ireland, I think, but I forget which) has an election about an EU matter, and it goes "the wrong way". The EU's response: Well, they'll just have to vote again.

Forgive me if the details are wrong (I'm writing from memory, and I'm not even in the EU). But that kind of thing has happened more than once - "the EU" has decided on a direction, and democracy is not going to be allowed to change it. That is why people feel the EU is undemocratic (as I understand it). The structure of the EU Parliament has nothing to do with it.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#576

Post by presidente20 »

Scarblac wrote: post #521
presidente20 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. People see the EU as undemocratic because Parliament is neither the main policy-making body nor the main executive power. It is more of a supervisory body, akin to the role of Congress or the House of Lords. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament#Control_of...

And the reason it is is that they don't want their own democratically elected governments to lose sovereignty. If you give the EU parliament more power, the national parliaments must lose power. I don't see how one is more democratic than the other.

I'm saying that the EU is not sufficiently democratic because its executive bodies are not elected by the people whereas in national parliaments they are.

I'm not saying that national governments should give up sovereignty. I'm saying that what powers the EU already has should be more directly democratic.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#577

Post by [deleted] »

ed_balls wrote: post #573
astrodust wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd give it a solid B+ for the last 240 years. It's only had a single civil war which compared to the last 240 years of Europe is downright amazing!

Keep in mind how small USA was 240 years ago. In 1910 it was 90m comparing to Germany 62m.

[deleted]

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#578

Post by realityking »

orbifold wrote: post #571
oblio wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is an oppressor, really? Hyperbole, much? Everyone joined the EU willingly. The fact that they can leave whenever is further proof that the EU is not autocratic.

Of course it is oppression, it is antidemocratic, was forced on the people and pushed heavily by propaganda. It is a project of the elites and industry, any benefits to ordinary people are far outweighed by the benefits of industry. For the longest time it was simply that: A number of economic treaties, the political stuff was added later on because people realised that it would be far easier to push through their ag…

I don't see how that is the Eu being anti-democratic. Note that I oppose the regulation on the merits as well but procedurally: - all member countries except for Ireland and Slovakia voted for it in the council. That includes the German I have no illusions it wouldn't have passed in the German Bundestag - the EU parliament voted for it - the ECJ struck it down for violating the Charter of Fundamental Rights

It basically the same thing that keeps happening within Germany, it seems like the institutions work equally well or badly.

Now what is a problem is that national politicians like to hide behind the EU. That's why you should always check who voted for these things in the council. Usually it's the same people (or at least parties) who later they the EU is forcing their hand.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#579

Post by themihai »

ed_balls wrote: post #472
themihai wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A military alliance (such NATO) alone cannot prevent war between its members. The recent events(Trump threating to pull U.S. support or Turkey's behaviour) proves how fragile a such alliance is. I wouldn't be surprised to see Turkey leaving NATO and join an alliance with Russia. If a member decides that the alliance doesn't serve its national interests anymore nothing can stop it from leaving and joining a different…

After Turkey shot their plane?

I think they already settled that.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#580

Post by XJOKOLAT »

nul_byte wrote: post #433
XJOKOLAT wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wages, the value of my home, are now worth 20% less. If you're ok with that, good for you. I'm not. My access to the EU faces being curtailed (not just travel inconvenience, but the permanent movement of my family). If you're ok with that, good for you. I'm not. I could go on. You say: "maybe I'm just chilled". How about, maybe you're forgetting to put yourself in other peoples shoes, or grasping why it matters to…

The value of your home is 20% less if you want to sell it in a foreign currency.

Who would sell their home in a foreign currency? You're stating weirdly (imo, wrongly)

You would sell your home in sterling. Sterling has been devalued. If you then wanted to act internationally, you would be curtailed to the tune of 20%

Might not matter to you, but matters to me. I'm partially hedged but the vast asset base of the UK, and the salaries of all its workers, has been devalued by this move.

And don't get me wrong, economics is the least of my concerns.

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