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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#211

Post by vanderZwan »

Svip wrote: post #176
vanderZwan wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It wasn't nationalism which caused conflicts in Europe, it was a lack of democracy. This is infuriatingly vague. What are you complaining about? That the various EU councils aren't directly elected? Well, they are all delegates of politicians who have been elected in their home country . And to have a direct election makes no sense, because it's not like a Swede will vote for an Italian politician. For that to happ…

The EU does have direct elections: See the European Parliament.

Yes, but that's just one body of the EU. The "lack direct elections" argument usually applies to how the EU is full of sub-groups that aren't directly elected. But like I said, I don't think that's necessarily bad.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#212

Post by XJOKOLAT »

dustinmoris wrote: post #51

I'm a bit tired of reading doomsday messages by now. I am an European living and working in the UK and even though this affects me I have no reason to believe that things will go downwards now. If there's anything I've learned so far then that every analysis I've read couldn't have been more wrong. It almost seems like the more the UK economy doesn't collapse the more people shout even louder how bad the Brexit is. M…

My wages, the value of my home, are now worth 20% less. If you're ok with that, good for you. I'm not.

My access to the EU faces being curtailed (not just travel inconvenience, but the permanent movement of my family). If you're ok with that, good for you. I'm not.

I could go on. You say: "maybe I'm just chilled". How about, maybe you're forgetting to put yourself in other peoples shoes, or grasping why it matters to them. If you're ok with that, good for you. I'm not.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#213

Post by TheCondor »

mdekkers wrote: post #178
barrkel wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll say what I said before the referendum: the EU cannot strive for the closest relationship possible because that would encourage other countries to leave. There must be a price, an ongoing cost. Britain is trapped with a forked strategy: it can go the Singapore route or the supplicant route. The two are incompatible and neither of them is realistically feasible. The Singapore route is what hard Brexiteers want but…

the EU cannot strive for the closest relationship possible because that would encourage other countries to leave. There must be a price, an ongoing cost. I don't understand why this wasn't a centerpiece of the Remain campaign.

Because, as it was also seen in the US election, it wasn't possible for them to win.

It will be interesting to watch, nothing has been negotiated, that's the irony, nobody even knows what they voted for. I can't imagine Europe making it easy though.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#214

Post by themihai »

antihero wrote: post #39
Two9A wrote: post #5

Are British HN'ers taking any mitigating steps due to this whole situation? I'm currently in the process of incorporating in the Netherlands, and it turns out setting up a Ltd is a lot more expensive over there than in the UK. I just don't feel that the UK will make good use of my tax receipts any more, so I'm almost obligated to take my work elsewhere.

To be honest I'm just staring blankly into space and wondering if us Londoners can secede from the rest of the UK somehow.

Very unlikely but not impossible. It reminds me of "Yes California" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_California

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#215

Post by TorKlingberg »

krona wrote: post #90
ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

> which will include higher prices Interesting. I was in a UK supermarket the other day and the asparagus on offer was from Spain and Mexico. The Mexican variety was cheaper, and just as good. Currently, Mexico pays a 14.4% common external tariff on this product, and it's still cheaper than what the EU (with it's massive array of agricultural subsidy) can produce. I imagine this is just the tip of the iceberg.

That's because we are early in the asparagus season, and Mexico is a warmer country. Wait a couple of weeks and you will see mostly Spanish asparagus. A couple of more weeks and it will be British.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#216

Post by cygx »

bontoJR wrote: post #92
ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

These are pretty much the same forecasts Switzerland and Norway were supposed to face when they rejected to join the EU... people losing jobs, Swiss Franc falling, export collapsing, etc... well, it went a little bit in a different way. OFC leaving is totally a different thing from not being in at all, but still... there are going to be pro and cons, but the economy will adapt as happened in Switzerland and Norway. S…

Note that Norway and Switzerland accept freedom of movement. Switzerland tried to introduce immigration quotas for EU workers, but that got scrapped a couple of months ago.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#217

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

krona wrote: post #199
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be because the minimum wages are massively different for the two countries, with $0.48/hr in Mexico vs $4.98/hr in Spain[1]. Globalism does exploit the lower standard of living of other countries, after all. That means that even though there are massive tariffs, these "third world" countries can still make a profit because of the abysmal quality of life for its citizens. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis…

Of course it's because of wages! The point is, it is because of protectionism that Mexican and African farmers cant sell their products in to the EU at a fair price, and once outside the customs union, the poorest consumers in the UK and the poorest farmers in the world both stand to benefit. Global trade is lifting billions of the poorest people out of poverty, and long may it continue.

It's true that globalization is raising the average income of people in many places in the world, but it is also causing an increase in inequality within most countries[1]. It's not fair to the middle class of a country when it needs to compete against a country that doesn't have the same environmental or labor laws that it has. This leads to a race to the bottom and tanks the quality of life for most people, though the capital owners get out ahead. Why can't those countries form their own industries?

[1] https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2007/02/pdf/c4.pdf

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#218

Post by lhopki01 »

dmix wrote: post #134
dustinmoris wrote: post #51

I'm a bit tired of reading doomsday messages by now. I am an European living and working in the UK and even though this affects me I have no reason to believe that things will go downwards now. If there's anything I've learned so far then that every analysis I've read couldn't have been more wrong. It almost seems like the more the UK economy doesn't collapse the more people shout even louder how bad the Brexit is. M…

The risks are really only economic. And those can be solved with trade pacts... without having to sacrifice any other independence such as with laws, courts, and borders. I'm from Canada and our economy (and defence) depends heavily on the US, we both strongly benefit from an economic relationship. It's mutually beneficial, as all pacts should be. Yet we don't have to worry about policy being dictated out of NAFTA or…

Trade pacts don't really cover what the EU does. The EU goes well beyond traditional trade pacts in services. Take for example passporting for financial firms. Also it provides a much better legal framework for disputes than arbitration tribunals. Unless you think it's a good idea for your judge one day to be your lawyer the next.

Comparing NAFTA to the EU shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how far reaching the EU is. We are only at the beginning of the economic integration. Take for example the recent progress on the digital market. One advantage US startups have is 350m consumers immediately, something the EU is only just starting to bring in.

As for peace you might dismiss it but Western Europe has experienced the longest period of peace in its entire history by a massive margin. To put that on NATO and the UN but not the EU seems odd considering conflicts outside that involve NATO and UN member countries.

Your analysis of democracies seems very limited. Why did you exclude Germany from that list? Why don't you include Greece on you list of small democracies?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#219

Post by najati83 »

poooogles wrote: post #186
adnam wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Errr, no there was a clear majority vote for leaving the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_United_Kingdom_...

With 72% turnout. I'm highlighting how stupid the idea that this is the will of the people is in reality.

The rest of the people knew about this vote and they didn't care enough to vote. What are we supposed to do about that? Should we force everybody to vote?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#220

Post by themihai »

topbanana wrote: post #33
gambiting wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not British but I live in the UK - I have based my entire life here, family, house, job, car, everything - and a year ago, I would have never considered leaving, this is my home. But right now, I'm weighting my options. I'm a huge believer in the European Union, so why would I want to live in a country that's not in it? And increasingly, I think the answer is - I wouldn't. So although I haven't started packing ye…

Getting a visa isn't so onerous is it? Compared with the hassle of upping your roots and moving your family?

It just makes you feel more foreign though...You also have to consider deportation if the political environment changes or for some reasons you fail to extend your visa. That may give you a feel of insecurity and shortly said you may no longer feel "at home" anymore.
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