UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU • Hacker News Board

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#511

Post by rleigh » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

Angostura wrote: post #289

martinald wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make good points, but the problem is in most countries knowledge of MEPs is close to nil. Turnout for European Parliament elections is also abysmal, in the UK 35%, NL 37% and even France and Germany are in the low 40s. It would be even lower if other elections weren't tagged along with the EU ones (eg usually the UK has local elections at the same time). There is an enormous amount of voter apathy towards the EU…

Odd isn't it. In the UK, people are so apathetic about the EU that they won't bother voting and so exercised by the EU that they want to leave.

Why would you vote for an organisation you never wanted to be a part of in the first place? How does exercising your right to vote (or not) indicate that? Wanting to leave and voting are separate, but coupled, factors.

I always have voted out of duty as a citizen to vote, but it always felt like a waste of time. The MEPs are unknowns you never see, and the proceedings are so divorced from regular politics that they seem like they serve little practical purpose in representing our views. Particularly when the people you are voting for are then members of supranational blocs with their own agendas. It's so far removed from the individual voter that it seems like they could do whatever they wanted and claim a mandate for it. I don't think democracy is particularly effective at this scale.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#512

Post by rbehrends » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:47 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #500

rbehrends wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. The Commission election involves several steps. First, the President is nominated. While this is technically a power of the European Council (not to be confused with the Council of the European Union), in 2004 the Parliament won the right to determine the president and the nomination by the European Council is only a formality. (Similar to the appointment of the British PM by the British monarch). In practice,…

I'm sorry it's not false, and in fact you've more or less confirmed what I said, the Commission is put in place by the Council and they originate all legislation. This byzantine system, so thoroughly removed from the populace, is one of the reasons I'm not sad we're leaving.

> the Commission is put in place by the Council

It is not. Even if you want to dispute the fact that the Commission President is de facto chosen by the voters and elected by the EP, the European Council has zero role in the selection of the remaining commissioners, who are nominated by the member states in consultation with the Commission President.

I'm not sure how you can live with the British system, though, if this is such a problem for you, as it is even worse in that regard.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#513

Post by rleigh » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:50 PM UTC

rbehrends wrote: post #494

dnautics wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) you do understand that "unelected" doesn't mean "no vote was held". For example in the us system the supreme Court justices and the president's cabinet are referred to as "unelected" although they are held to confirmation votes in the us legislative assembly. 2) it doesn't strike you that this convoluted process with several confusing and in some cases similarly named governing organizations is itself the problem…

> 1) you do understand that "unelected" doesn't mean "no vote was held". For example in the us system the supreme Court justices and the president's cabinet are referred to as "unelected" although they are held to confirmation votes in the us legislative assembly. Then the British PM is also unelected, as is the British cabinet. Heck, it's even worse, as they're directly appointed without the House of Commons even ge…

The British prime minister and cabinet are all elected. They are elected MPs like any other, who are selected by their party to perform additional duties. That is not at all the case with the members of the European Commission.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#514

Post by mattmanser » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:51 PM UTC

chimprich wrote: post #192

mattmanser wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't help the EU is acting like a petulant wronged partner. We didn't even cheat on you! I mean, seriously, £68 billion for stuff we're not going to be able to use? Grow up and rework your budget. No trade negotiations until we leave? It makes them look like utter fools, one dose of actual democracy deciding they've had enough of backdoor federalisation and they're threatening every punishment they can think of…

Petulant? It is your comment that seems quite emotional; "Grow up", "utter fools", etc. It is entirely rational for the EU to try to get the best possible deal they can.

How is it emotional to simply describe how people are acting? I don't understand your comment's relevancy?

How would you describe the EU's actions right now? Rather than firing Junker and reforming, they're going to try and punish the UK to try and frighten their own citizens into staying EU members.

That's not rational or a considered response, that's an emotional one at odds with what is best for all of Europe's citizens.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#515

Post by lordnacho » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:52 PM UTC

sangnoir wrote: post #242

folli wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the more people feel detached from the political process, the less responsible they feel to take an active part in the process. This is why I believe that a regional government is to be preferred over a centralistic government. I'm aware that not all problems can be solved on a regional level, but those that can, should. This is especially true on a cultural more diverse landscape such as Europe comp…

Is there any that evidence the optimal administrative size for people not to feel "detached from the political process" is at state level? Why not further devolve sovereignty further to the british isles, regions, cities or counties? The absurdity of it all is that the Tories say "It's good to leave the union" when the subject is Brexit, while also saying "It's not good to leave the union" when the subject is Indyref…

> Why not further devolve sovereignty further to the british isles, regions, cities or counties?

That's a great idea, and precisely what they do in Switzerland. Stuff that's local is decided locally. What days are holidays? Depends on what canton you're in. How are schools organised? Local. What are taxes? Local.

That doesn't mean you can't organise some things on a national level, for instance the military, and federal projects like the excellent technical universities. And there's a federal tax to go with it.

If little regions had more power it would be a lot easier as an individual to shop around for the area you like, and for experiments to be made.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#516

Post by rleigh » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #304

Chaebixi wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do those things have identities as independent nations/cultures?

The better question to ask is: Does Britain have identity as a nation? Various surveys indicates that a lot of people in the UK - across all the constituents parts - see themselves as more English/Welsh/Scottish/Irish than British. Many don't see themselves as British at all (ironically immigrants who have become citizens are far more likely to see themselves as British first than people born here). The British ident…

Britain is not a nation, it is an island, so the question doesn't really make sense to ask. It's impossible to be English, Welsh or Scottish and not be British; you can't choose geography.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#517

Post by presidente20 » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 7:57 PM UTC

rbehrends wrote: post #464

presidente20 wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that powers of veto are less influential than powers of creating policy. I don't think people are saying that the EU is completely undemocratic (as pointed out above, democracy is a somewhat muddy concept in practice), more that it falls short of the standards of a typical democracy (which to me means a directly elected executive body).

> The point is that powers of veto are less influential than powers of creating policy. Can you explain what you are talking about? Because I honestly have no idea. > democracy (which to me means a directly elected executive body). Which happens pretty much nowhere in the world. Even in the US, only the President is directly elected, not the rest of the cabinet. In the UK, Germany, Spain, the executive is not directl…

On the first point I mean that the policy creators (in this case the Commission) can make any policy of their choosing. The veto-ers (i.e. the European Parliament) can only block the legislation. As the former control what gets debated, they frame the debate and the latter can only react.

On the second point; you may in a narrow technical sense be correct. Taking the Uk as an example, the UK Cabinet is literally appointed by the PM. However the wider point is that the executive power of the PM and the ruling party is granted by winning an election based on a manifesto etc. The PM and cabinet members are also individually elected to their seats.

In contrast, the Commission is more akin to the Civil Service.

On your final point, that's a far cry from being elected by a voting public. Also I presume there are restrictions on who can stand for Commission President?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#518

Post by rbehrends » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:01 PM UTC

rleigh wrote: post #513

rbehrends wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1) you do understand that "unelected" doesn't mean "no vote was held". For example in the us system the supreme Court justices and the president's cabinet are referred to as "unelected" although they are held to confirmation votes in the us legislative assembly. Then the British PM is also unelected, as is the British cabinet. Heck, it's even worse, as they're directly appointed without the House of Commons even ge…

The British prime minister and cabinet are all elected. They are elected MPs like any other, who are selected by their party to perform additional duties. That is not at all the case with the members of the European Commission.

1. When we're talking about this, this is generally about an election to the executive office the person holds, not the legislature. Plenty of countries have cabinet positions that are specifically not drawn from the legislature as the result of separation of powers. After all, part of the reason for an election to executive office is the control of the executive by the legislature.

2. British cabinet ministers can also come from the House of Lords and not just from the House of Commons. This is rare in modern times, though the Leader of the House of Lords, a cabinet position, always is a member of the Lords.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#519

Post by mattmanser » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:02 PM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #402

The EU should treat this like America treated secessionist states - the UK should be compelled to stay by force. Obviously there should not be any actual war, since the Brtis should just say, "well, all right." Afterward they should be full, normal participants, just as every state is a normal participant in the United States and has equal and fair votes in the Senate and House of Representatives. Why should this be…

Putting aside the lack of knowledge of the situation or what the EU actually is, the UK has nuclear weapons, the highest EU defence spending and a permanent UN security council seat. The EU has no army.

What you propose would mean the end of the UN, the end of NATO, the end of the EU and a possible WW3. And Russia would probably 'liberate' a few border countries from the 'imperialistic EU' while that's all happening.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#520

Post by rbehrends » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 8:06 PM UTC

presidente20 wrote: post #517

rbehrends wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is that powers of veto are less influential than powers of creating policy. Can you explain what you are talking about? Because I honestly have no idea. > democracy (which to me means a directly elected executive body). Which happens pretty much nowhere in the world. Even in the US, only the President is directly elected, not the rest of the cabinet. In the UK, Germany, Spain, the executive is not directl…

On the first point I mean that the policy creators (in this case the Commission) can make any policy of their choosing. The veto-ers (i.e. the European Parliament) can only block the legislation. As the former control what gets debated, they frame the debate and the latter can only react. On the second point; you may in a narrow technical sense be correct. Taking the Uk as an example, the UK Cabinet is literally appo…

> On the first point I mean that the policy creators (in this case the Commission) can make any policy of their choosing. The veto-ers (i.e. the European Parliament) can only block the legislation. As the former control what gets debated, they frame the debate and the latter can only react.

The Parliament and Council do not just have veto power. The Parliament can in principle replace legislation entirely through amendments. (In practice, this does not happen, because the Commission isn't going to waste time on writing legislation where the Parliament would do just that.)

> However the wider point is that the executive power of the PM and the ruling party is granted by winning an election based on a manifesto etc. The PM and cabinet members are also individually elected to their seats.

The former part is also the case in the EU [1]. The latter is not universal among democracies (none of Trump's cabinet members was elected) and is not even always true in the UK, as members of the Lords are also eligible for cabinet positions. And in fact, the Leader of the House of Lords, which is a cabinet position, still always comes from the Lords.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Comm...